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Michael Rust
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Power Generation

In one of Iain's articles about punching power he talks about the development of power. There is a line that states "Another common error is to twist from the center of the body so that one side of the hip travels forward whilst the other side is going backward". The article continues to say" to punch with power at close-range you should pivot from the side of your hip so that the whole body is travelling in the direction of the punch".

Is there anyone who can help explain the bit about pivoting from the side of your hip or have a video showing what that looks like. I'm not quite clear what this means.

Thanks,

Michael

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Michael,

take a look at this video. Here Peter Consterdine is explaining the double hip. A part of that body mechanism is to change the pivot point of the hip rotation from the center to the side, like with a hinge of a door.

Hope that helps.

Regards Holger

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Michael,

Michael Rust wrote:
In one of Iain's articles about punching power he talks about the development of power. There is a line that states "Another common error is to twist from the center of the body so that one side of the hip travels forward whilst the other side is going backward". The article continues to say" to punch with power at close-range you should pivot from the side of your hip so that the whole body is travelling in the direction of the punch".

My introduction to Peter’s way of power generation, and transitions between techniques, was a revelation that lead to my wholesale adaptation of that methodology.

Having trained with Peter for many years, I need to point out that the video above shows the initial stage of learning the method, and it is not the totality of it. Another HUGE part of Peter’s teaching is the rapid transition between techniques. This results in an “overlap” as one technique flows into another and the end of one “double hip” becomes the start of another. The result is a fast rate of fire with huge impact.

On this clip Joe (here a 1st kyu, now a 1st dan) double hips everything, but you can see the speed and overlapping. You’ll also notice that his hips and bodyweight are always going toward the target … as opposed pulling one side away from the target, which would happen if the spine was the central pivot.

As you can also see from the video, the double hip is much more subtle that people think when they have only been exposed to the initial stages. The impact Joe is developing speaks for itself. He’s not a big guy and yet the power generated by the method is far greater than most achieve with the single hip.

As just alluded to, one of the criticisms often put forward against the double hip is that it’s too big and telegraphs the punch, but that’s always from those who have not learnt the method directly and have only seen the initial stages. It’s a little like saying karate only involves standing in horse stance doing straight punches because that is what you saw in the first five minutes your first lesson.

The double hip pivots from the side and only looks subtlety different in application, but the difference in impact is HUGE. As regards to its impact on my karate, I have often likened it to driving a car … I’m still driving the same car I always was, and from the outside it looks pretty much the same, however, Peter put a much bigger engine in it. Everything I do is more powerful, but it has not required me to fundamentally abandon any part of my traditional karate i.e. I still do the same kata, and then still pretty much look the same, but the addition of the subtleties of the double hip has made a massive different to the potency in application.

It is difficult to pick this up from words and videos - “feeling is believing” being a catchphrase of Peter’s – but I hope the combination of the two videos helps make things a little clearer?

All the best,

Iain

Nick Browne
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I am not sure I understand how the double technique works, and what you mean by pivot point. Can someone give me a description or a clearer video demonstrating it in slow motion please?

Kevin73
Kevin73's picture

It's always hard to describe, but easy to see when watching the first video.

If you think of the hips as hinges on a door.

The double hip method, would be like your standard door.  It only hinges on one side and the whole door moves as a unit to open.

The "center pivot point" would be more like a revolving door.  As you push the one side forward, the other side moves backwards the same time and distance.  

The easiest way to create this effect with your body is to stand with feet less than shoulder width, and extend your arms straight out to the sides.  Rotate your upper body so your right arm moves forward, as you do this, your left arm moves back the same degree of motion.  Now look to your hips and you will see that your left hip is also moving backwards as well.

Nick Browne
Nick Browne's picture

Thank you for your explanation. Just to make sure that I have understood this properly: If i was doing a right hand punch with right leg back. Instead of rotating around the spin as the central point, I rotate as though the left hip is the central point so i use the whole right hip and spine to throw the power forward?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Nick Browne wrote:
Thank you for your explanation. Just to make sure that I have understood this properly: If I was doing a right hand punch with right leg back. Instead of rotating around the spin as the central point, I rotate as though the left hip is the central point so I use the whole right hip and spine to throw the power forward?

Kevin has done an awesome job of explaining it and you’re generally right in the above. There are couple of extra bits for you to consider though.

Firstly, the left hip will also move forward before “fixing as the door hinge” such that the right hip is then catapulted forward. This is basically the same principle of motion that is used to generate power in golf swings, javelin throws, tennis serves, etc. It’s also been my experience that it the way most people will intuitively develop power when not moulded to some other method. In application, the left hip moving forward will often be the end of the previous double hip i.e. the one that added power into the jab before the second double hip powered the cross. The hips always lead the hands in such a way that torque is transferred through the torso and this has the effect of not only increasing power, but also the rate of fire. As I said, in in-fight application it is much more subtle than those who have only seen the early stages appreciate.

The second things is – and this is hugely important – is that power, whist being a primary concern, is not the only concern in combat. In the above clip, Peter makes the point that the ankle, hip and shoulder should be like the three hinges of a door. That is ideal for the pre-emptive enactment of the double hip, and it’s the perfect place to start learning it. However, having studied with Peter for many years, I know this is just the start (and not, as those who have not learnt it correctly assume, the totality of it). There are obviously lots of times when there will be a bend in the hip and knee in a combative situation (for many good technical and tactical reasons); we still double hip all strikes from every position, but it will not be the ABC version we start with.

The key things are that the pivot point is not the spine (so that we avoid half of the bodyweight moving away from the target), that the hips lead the hands (so that torque is developed in the torso and the hands are fired into the target as opposed to being pushed my muscle) and that the end of one technique overlaps with the beginning of the next (such that a rapid rate of fire is maintained via “striking on the half beat”).

I hope this helps? If you can get a copy of Peter Consterdine’s “Training Day 3” DVD there’s lots on that about the flowing use of the double hip (and I’m in there as a sweaty extra too).

All the best,

Iain

Nick Browne
Nick Browne's picture

Thank you very much to both Iain and Kevin for being patient and explaining this to me. I really appreciate it and understand the technique a lot more now. :) 

Iain Abernethy
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Nick Browne wrote:
Thank you very much to both Iain and Kevin for being patient and explaining this to me. I really appreciate it and understand the technique a lot more now. :)

You are most welcome! I'm pleased that helped.

Roman P
Roman P's picture

Hello all. Longtime lurker, but I decided to join because of this interesting (for me) topic.

I don't think that what is shown in videos of 'double-hip' techniques is necessarily connected with the issue of generating power by pivoting from the side of the body. In those videos, people quickly pre-load their hips to improve the amount of power, this however can be done whether spine is used as a fulcrum or not. 

I was kinda dubious about pivoting around the side of the body in comparison to balanced rotation using spine as a center of rotation. But I tried it from the standing position, by trying to fix the left hip joint in its place and only move the right one, and I think it can be done. You just start with externally rotated knee and bring it to internal rotation, as well as shift weight to the left foot and slightly forward. This turns the normal right cross into the right hook though. 

But actually, what I wanted to ask you all about, is the question of coordinating hands, feet and body on punching with a step. When you think of the right cross, for example, you can do it with same-side and different-side coordination. For example, say you do a one-two on a step (from orthodox stance).

1) You take a small step with the left foot, jab with the left hand, take a small step with the right foot, right cross. This is the way I was taught (and I believe is more common - this is a same-side coordination).

2) You take a small step with the left foot, jab, another step with a left foot, right cross. This will be a different-side coordination for the cross. 

If you use the second method, you have to sink your bodyweight lower by lenghtening the stance, but you also push you weight forward by lunging and pushing off the rear leg. You have to use balanced rotation around spine. If you use the first method though, you pull your body forward to the front leg, and you have to rotate around its hip. Boxers commonly stomp in the middle of this phase to push off the ground and begin a balanced rotation though. But you can just rotate around the left hip completely - I believe Iain showed that in his videos as full-commitment punch. Is rotation around the forward hip and same-side coordination of hands and feet better? 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Roman P wrote:
Longtime lurker, but I decided to join because of this interesting (for me) topic.

Glad to have you come out of the shadows :-)

Roman P wrote:
I don't think that what is shown in videos of 'double-hip' techniques is necessarily connected with the issue of generating power by pivoting from the side of the body. In those videos, people quickly pre-load their hips to improve the amount of power, this however can be done whether spine is used as a fulcrum or not.

It’s true that you can preload the hips while using the spine as the fulcrum, but that would not be a “double hip” and I’d avoid that because you will still lose power if the spine is the fulcrum. Half the hip is moving in the opposite direction to the strike when pivoting around the centre of the hip (the spine). That’s a significant amount of bodyweight to be moving the wrong way. Pivoting from the side of the hip means that the entirety of the body (or as much as is possible with that context of that given moment) is moving in the same direction as the strike.

In the post above I think I did a reasonable job of summarising the thinking:

Iain Abernethy wrote:
There are obviously lots of times when there will be a bend in the hip and knee in a combative situation (for many good technical and tactical reasons); we still double hip all strikes from every position, but it will not be the ABC version we start with.

The key things are that the pivot point is not the spine (so that we avoid half of the bodyweight moving away from the target), that the hips lead the hands (so that torque is developed in the torso and the hands are fired into the target as opposed to being pushed my muscle) and that the end of one technique overlaps with the beginning of the next (such that a rapid rate of fire is maintained via “striking on the half beat”).

Roman P wrote:
But actually, what I wanted to ask you all about, is the question of coordinating hands, feet and body on punching with a step

I don’t think there a “do this all the time” answer here because the footwork is not only about power generation, it’s also about targeting, distancing, tactical positioning, etc. There will be times when my feet would not move at all, because to do so would take away the correct distancing and hence the power of the strike. If the enemy was advancing quickly, I would need to move the feet backward to get optimal distance. Any footwork you can think off can be “double hipped” (it’s a subtle motion with a big effect) and the exact footwork will be determined by the context of the situation.

All the best,

Iain

Michael Rust
Michael Rust's picture

The other thing to consider or that I've been told to consider is the role that your shoulders play in striking. That you must twist them with your hips at least slightly to help generate power. I guess if you learn to use your hips properly the shoulders will follow. Sort like in wrestling were the head goes the body goes. Although, I guess you could move your hips and keep the shoulders square, but that would seem unatural to me. Thoughts ?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Michael Rust wrote:
The other thing to consider or that I've been told to consider is the role that your shoulders play in striking. That you must twist them with your hips at least slightly to help generate power. I guess if you learn to use your hips properly the shoulders will follow. Sort like in wrestling were the head goes the body goes. Although, I guess you could move your hips and keep the shoulders square, but that would seem unatural to me. Thoughts?

Definitely! I would say that the torque through the torso will ensure the shoulders move as they should. I use the term “spiralling” to communicate this idea. The power starts low, and “spirals” through the body which ensures maximum drive and weight to the end of the spiral (the striking area).

All the best,

Iain

Roman P
Roman P's picture

Iain, thanks for the answer.

I further reviewed the videos and now I think that focusing on the axis of body rotation is not the best way to understand power generation. Ultimately, any such axis is imaginary, as actions of both left and right leg muscles change the position of pelvis relative to the feet and rotate it in vertical axis. How Mr. Consterdine demonstates his technique is possibly dependent on posture, feet positions and punching distance (and type of punch). Really fixing a left hip joint in place is problematic for most punches short of right hook. Usually, for the right cross from the standing position, I will push off with the right leg and shift pelvis forward and only then employ the left leg to counterbalance myself in a certain postion and create the rotation. So the left hip joint goes forward a bit and goes a bit back again. I was also taught to twist the shoulder girdle a bit more then the pelvic girdle while doing straight punches.

To further this discussion, here is a video of Dzambolat Tsoriev, Russian armwrestler, doing a record of a metric tonne with his right hook punch:

Marc
Marc's picture

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

From my bookmark collection I found three more videos that might be of interest.

First ist Iain showing more of that hip action:

Second is Iain bringing attention to upright body posture:

Third is Rick Hotton on this wave-like motion also used in techniques other than the punch:

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Roman P wrote:
Iain, thanks for the answer.

You’re welcome! It’s the discussion which makes the threads of value to readers. So thank you too!

Roman P wrote:
I further reviewed the videos and now I think that focusing on the axis of body rotation is not the best way to understand power generation. Ultimately, any such axis is imaginary, as actions of both left and right leg muscles change the position of pelvis relative to the feet and rotate it in vertical axis.

The visualisation of the axis is imaginary: the movement that results is very real. When people do punch with one side going forward, and one side doing back, they do lose bodyweight. Accepting “compromises” away from the ideal may made because of positional and tactical considerations, we always need to ensure as much weight as is possible goes into the punch. Defaulting to a central rotation will often rob a technique of potential weight transfer. Defaulting to a rotation to the side of the hip does not have that problem.

Roman P wrote:
How Mr. Consterdine demonstates his technique is possibly dependent on posture, feet positions and punching distance (and type of punch). Really fixing a left hip joint in place is problematic for most punches short of right hook.

All techniques are double-hipped, but you’re right that the specifics depend upon the context. However, my experience of training with Peter for many years does not match what you said in the second sentence. I’ve never found it problematic … indeed I’ve found it to be hugely beneficial to all strikes. Hooks, uppercuts, straight punches, elbows, knees, sweeps, etc, etc can all hugely benefit from the double hip.

Roman P wrote:
To further this discussion, here is a video of Dzambolat Tsoriev, Russian armwrestler, doing a record of a metric tonne with his right hook punch:

It’s a hard punch, but there are obvious problems with telegraphing and the difficulty there would be in delivering rapid follow-up strikes. However, taking it for what it is (an attempt to hit as hard as possible devoid of all combative context), notice how the back leg comes forward when he hits. Also notice how the left side of his hip is not retreating away from the target. He is pivoting, not from the centre, but from the left side of the hip. He is getting his power through what is essentially a crude double hip. If you were to refine that to remove the huge wide up, add in tactical considerations (including the required variations in executions as per the situation), and to take into consideration the need to be able to rapidly follow up, you’d be heading toward the double hip as Peter teaches it.

Ultimately, we all need to go with what we feel makes the most sense to us. The first time Peter hit me, I wanted to explore the double hip more. Having trained alongside the people Peter taught, I was convicted of its superiority to my prior methods of power generation due to the speed, power and flow those who adopted the method (which included boxers, karateka, kick boxers, Thai boxers, Krav Maga practitioners, etc). Having “untrained” former habits I noticed a big increase in speed and power, and therefore is has become a fundamental part of what I do.

Whatever way people ultimately decide to go, threads like this are really useful in unpacking the details.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Marc wrote:
Thanks for the interesting discussion.

From my bookmark collection I found three more videos that might be of interest.

Thanks for adding those. They help illustrate some of the ideas we’ve been taking about.

Marc wrote:
Third is Rick Hotton on this wave-like motion also used in techniques other than the punch

I love the grace of that guy’s movement … but to avoid confusion, a wave like motion (or a “wave form”) is not the same as the double hip.

On a personal note, I’m not a fan of the “wave imagery” because waves ebb back and forth, and I’m really after forth, forth and more forth :-)

I get what others are alluding to with this imagery though.

All the best,

Iain

Michael Rust
Michael Rust's picture

One thing that I think can't be disputed and Sensei Hotton demonstrates very well is how being relaxed is also an important part of strking and generating power, but maybe more so in getting that whip effect into your shots. Which leads me to wonder is the snappy, whip effect considered good power ? I know it hurts.

Roman P
Roman P's picture

Iain,

When people do punch with one side going forward, and one side doing back, they do lose bodyweight. Accepting “compromises” away from the ideal may made because of positional and tactical considerations, we always need to ensure as much weight as is possible goes into the punch. Defaulting to a central rotation will often rob a technique of potential weight transfer. Defaulting to a rotation to the side of the hip does not have that problem.

The question of the optimal way to transfer energy in the context of martial arts is indeed important (sadly, there are multiple books on biomechanics of popular command sports like football or baseball, or Olympic disciplines of disc and spear throwing, but martial arts and even boxing are rarely a focus of such studies). I am not certain that rotation of the body around a hip joint (same-side coordination of arms and legs) is really superior. For example, humans usually walk forward with a different-side coordination. Leg forward, hip forward, same-side shoulder goes back. Same-side coordination in this context is really weird (though apparently some do practice it - http://kickasssuec.blogspot.ru/2010/09/nanba-aruki.html). 

Mechanically, we can also shift our weight forward by lunging or bending the spine, which will not involve the rotation of pelvis. When we walk, we shift our weight forward by essentially falling forward. Some forms of motion effectivelly preclude us from rotation using the side of the body. For example, right cross on left foot stepping forward. Or right cross on right foot stepping back. For some types of motion shoulders will be rotated more than the pelvis, or possibly even rotated against the pelvis by twisting the trunk. By bringing some bodypart away from the target (be it a shoulder or a hip), we do limit the amount of mass we bring into the punch, put it can possibly maximize the acceleration of the striking fist. I wish I had a thorough knowledge of biomechanics, kinesiology and impact physics to definetely determine which way of striking or which type of body coordination is better...

It’s a hard punch, but there are obvious problems with telegraphing and the difficulty there would be in delivering rapid follow-up strikes. However, taking it for what it is (an attempt to hit as hard as possible devoid of all combative context), notice how the back leg comes forward when he hits. Also notice how the left side of his hip is not retreating away from the target. He is pivoting, not from the centre, but from the left side of the hip. He is getting his power through what is essentially a crude double hip.

I have to agree with this analysis of Tsoriev's punch, as he is indeed using the same-side coordination of punching arm and a moving leg. Still, Tsoriev in the final stage of the movement, I believe, is switching from side-axis rotation to the central-axis rotation, with his hip joint going a bit back to stabilize his rotation. I wish I had footage of high-scoring straight punches, but it seems in this tournament the best results were gained with hooks.

Leaving aside the question of types of rotation and arm-leg coordination, I'd like to ask you a question that bugged me for a long time. How do you utilize your lower back during punching? In particular, do you employ tilting the pelvis forward or backward (anterior/posterior pelvic tilt)? Posterior pelvic tilt is minimisation of lumbar curve and tucking the pelvis under the trunk (like in Sanchin stance), and anterior pelvic tilt is other way around - sticking your butt out. For a very long time I was unaware of this movements - reading about tilting the pelvis vertically initially bemused me as I never controlled for some particular tilt. I imagine a lot of athletes and martial artists also rarely give attention to tilting the pelvis one way or the other, because Google search results seem to imply that this type of movement is almost never ever discussed apart from the correct technique of deadlifts. I first encountered the mentions of importance of the posterior tilt in the blog of Ryan Parker, and then in certain Russian-language blogs of Uechi-Ryu and Goju-Ryu practicioners, where it was called 'gamaku'. Supposedly, posterior pelvic tilt maximizes connection and energy transfer between the pelvic and shoulder girdles during the motion of striking. Some practicioners go even further and describe a type of short-range straight punch which is done not with the horizontal rotation of the body, but with whipping a hand forward by going posterior-anterior-posterior tilt (like casting a fishing rod, only the rod is your spine). 

Do you personally employ the 'gamaku'/posterior pelvic tilt? I imagine tilting the pelvis can have some effect with certain punches, but less so if a body is twisted (shoulders and pelvis not being in the same position). 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Roman P wrote:
The question of the optimal way to transfer energy in the context of martial arts is indeed important (sadly, there are multiple books on biomechanics of popular command sports like football or baseball, or Olympic disciplines of disc and spear throwing, but martial arts and even boxing are rarely a focus of such studies).

Shigeru Kimura – the originator of the double hip method – did such studies in tandem with Japanese universities. There’s a photo of him strapped up to all kinds of monitoring equipment somewhere, but I can’t find it. It’s not online, but was in a feature on him in a UK magazine (anyone?). I did, however, find the video below.

It was experiencing Kimura’s power that lead Peter to switch styles and become a student of Kimura’s. Peter contextualized the double hip for pre-emption, self-protection and also put it into “boxing style punches”.

Roman P wrote:
I am not certain that rotation of the body around a hip joint (same-side coordination of arms and legs) is really superior. For example, humans usually walk forward with a different-side coordination. Leg forward, hip forward, same-side shoulder goes back.

The double hip does not require that. You pivot around the hip, but that can be same side or opposite side depending on the technique is question i.e. you can pivot from either side of the hip (left side or right side); we just don’t pivot from the spine.

The natural motion you are describing when walking is actually utilised during the double hip; particularly when kicking. If you watch Kimura, Peter, etc move there is certainly no issue with that. As it always the case, it’s hard to communicate it via words on a screen and if you get the chance to train with Peter I think it would help.

As a little aside, you can see Kimura doing the double hip on a series of “walking” punches in the above video. The disconnect between hip and shoulder you mention is utilised in the double hip as he moves.

Roman P wrote:
By bringing some bodypart away from the target (be it a shoulder or a hip), we do limit the amount of mass we bring into the punch, put it can possibly maximize the acceleration of the striking fist.

One of the reasons I bought into the double hip so enthusiastically was experience showed me the opposite to be true. The torque the double hip generates leads to massive acceleration, which it turn feeds into the next technique due to the way the double hip overlaps in combinations. I’m a pretty big guy (as was Kimura) but hand speed is something people complement me on … as I tell them, it’s not that I’m fast, I just start the punch sooner. Joe’s hand speed – young brown belt in the video – is also a result of double hipping. It creates a “fly wheel” effect with each motion adding to the next. We see the benefits of that even with low grades.

This old video shows Steve Williams (also a student of Peter’s) doing a pad drill. Everything is double hipped, and you can see the speed and acceleration Steve is demonstrating.

Here’s another example and we can again see that double hipping is adding to speed and acceleration.

The only reason I have adopted the double hip, and believe it is so enthusiastically, is I have experienced its benefits to me and mine. I used a “single hip” for decades so it’s not like I’m promoting the double hip because of personal investment or anything else. It’s a purely functional consideration for me.

Peter often states, “feeling is believing”… I felt and I believed :-)

Roman P wrote:
I wish I had a thorough knowledge of biomechanics, kinesiology and impact physics to definitely determine which way of striking or which type of body coordination is better...

Like you, I hold no doctorates in biomechanics, kinesiology, sports science or physics … but we are all able to consider the merits of various ideas through thinking about them, experiencing the (sometimes very painful) effects of them, and seeing what adopting them does for our martial arts.

The danger is over-analysis can have us disappearing down an “intellectual rabbit hole”. I don’t know the details of how a car engine works, but I can test drive differing vehicles and see which one I prefer :-)

Roman P wrote:
Leaving aside the question of types of rotation and arm-leg coordination, I'd like to ask you a question that bugged me for a long time. How do you utilize your lower back during punching?

…I imagine tilting the pelvis can have some effect with certain punches, but less so if a body is twisted (shoulders and pelvis not being in the same position).

I’m with you here and I do on some punches and not on others. On a standard uppercut I would, but I’d not be doing it if I was leaning to the corner to slip a cross and counter with a jab. I’d say it depended upon the position at the time. I like a “hollow back” on hooks, but that is down to the double hip again (i.e. lead with the hips and not with the shoulders) as opposed to pelvis position being the primary consideration.

Made for a very information rich thread here! Lots for people to ponder over when exploring this issue. Many thanks!

All the best,

Iain

Roman P
Roman P's picture

Iain,

Thank you for the video of Shigeru Kimura. His movements and punches indeed look sharp and hard. I am uncertain how to interpret the walking-punching sequences in the beginning of the video since it is quite short and very close up. It seems to me he is doing his punches the moment his hips are fully frontal.

The double hip does not require that. You pivot around the hip, but that can be same side or opposite side depending on the technique is question i.e. you can pivot from either side of the hip (left side or right side); we just don’t pivot from the spine.

Here I don't quite follow you. Say you stay in the orthodox stance. By pivoting around left hip joint you either move yourself forward (counter-clockwise) or slipping to the side (clockwise). Right hip - going back or slipping to the side respectively. 

P.S. To counterbalance the discussion of same-side coordination a bit, here is a video of Fedor Emelyanenko and his peculiar footwork I found. What is very interesting is that he often did his circular punches on the step of the different-side leg. That's not exactly a textbook hook anymore (a swing?).

Even more peculiar is that he heavily favours different-side coordination in general: in videos from his seminars, whenever he shows one-two, he does a right cross on the left step and left straight on the right step. 

Marc
Marc's picture

Roman P wrote:

To further this discussion, here is a video of Dzambolat Tsoriev, Russian armwrestler, doing a record of a metric tonne with his right hook punch:

As an aside, notice how he strikes with his lower arm as opposed to his fist. I suppose the larger striking area and the structural layout are of importance when hitting the bag. To show the might of his impact he needs to move the entire bag, instead of deforming it locally.

I guess when striking people it might depend on target and purpose as well. Do you want to knock the guy over, be certain to hit a moving target or are afraid you might break the small bones in your hand? Hit with your lower arm. Do you want to cause precise damage (think vital points)? Use your fist or even just a knuckle.

Once you've generated you power, you can distibute or focus it. It depends on what you want to do: If you want to fell a tree, use an axe (or a chainsaw if available). If you want to poke a hole into it, use a nail.

Does that make any sense in your experience?

Roman P
Roman P's picture

Marc,

To be honest, I don't have a lot of fighting/martial arts experience (trained in Judo, trained in some Muay Thai), and whenever I used a hook punch, a vertical (palm towards myself) fist usually sufficed. I didn't ever injure my hands. 

To me it seems Tsoriev strikes not only with the bones of his forearm, but also with the side of his fist. I'd be cautious to punch like that without a glove, and even with gloves on. Notice that Tsoriev is an armwrestler - he trains to have very strong muscles and ligaments in his forearms and hands. That might have something to do with his powerful strikes. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Roman P wrote:
I am uncertain how to interpret the walking-punching sequences in the beginning of the video since it is quite short and very close up. It seems to me he is doing his punches the moment his hips are fully frontal.

It’s the overall movement you need to be observing. As we said, there is no substitute for learning it, and feeling it, first hand. Kimura is the “god of the double hip” and, as has been said previously, the motion is much more subtle that people assume when the only exposure they have had to the method is the first stages.

Roman P wrote:
Here I don't quite follow you. Say you stay in the orthodox stance. By pivoting around left hip joint you either move yourself forward (counter-clockwise) or slipping to the side (clockwise). Right hip - going back or slipping to the side respectively.

I’m afraid I don’t follow the above :-) On the double hip, the aim is to have the entirety of the body moving in the direction of the strike. The hip will therefore never be “going back” as that’s the antithesis of the method. We may have reached the limits of the medium of the written word here, as is seems likely we are visualising differing things?

Roman P wrote:
here is a video of Fedor Emelyanenko and his peculiar footwork I found. What is very interesting is that he often did his circular punches on the step of the different-side leg. That's not exactly a textbook hook anymore (a swing?).

The double hip can be used to leap forward exactly as it shown. I don’t explain it any great depth, but you can see it on one of the above vidoes (https://youtu.be/RIL5Fy0jZV4?t=3m28s).

The hip initiates the move forward such that you are not moving in and then punching, but instead punching as you move in.

As I say, I think we’ve probably hit the limits of communicating this via written word. If those reading as still a little confused, then I would strongly recommend trying to attend a session with Peter.

Been a fun thread this!

All the best,

Iain

Jr cook
Jr cook's picture

Not sure if anyone else will see the value in this but I wanted to put a clip here for reference. 

Though the context is obviously very different from the footwork and mechanics needed in fighting applications, I see many similarities with throwing and punching. Baseball players often talk of starting the throw from the back leg and driving the hips, then shoulders forward. We can also see that the pitcher follows through completely with his body, using all his weight and leverage. To me, this is the equivilent of commiting weight and stepping into a punch. 

Of course, they only have to throw one time and can afford to be side on to the "target" with an awkward finishing stance so it's not exactly what we are discussing. Still, I thought it was interesting.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Jr cook wrote:
Though the context is obviously very different from the footwork and mechanics needed in fighting applications, I see many similarities with throwing and punching. Baseball players often talk of starting the throw from the back leg and driving the hips, then shoulders forward. We can also see that the pitcher follows through completely with his body, using all his weight and leverage. To me, this is the equivilent of commiting weight and stepping into a punch. 

Of course, they only have to throw one time and can afford to be side on to the "target" with an awkward finishing stance so it's not exactly what we are discussing. Still, I thought it was interesting.

Cool video! Within the context of the double hip, we can see how the pitcher moves one hip forward before planting the foot and pivoting around the side of that hip. There is no side moving away from the direction of the throw. The break between hip and limbs is also refered "hip lead" in the clip. As you rightly point put, the mechanics overall are not right for combat, but the power source is a “double-hip-esque” motion … as it is on Javelin Throws, Tennis Serves, Golf Swings etc. It is the natural way we humans most efficiently generate ballistic energy.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Here’s some more footage of Kimura and the double hip. The whole video is work a watch, but the gif below shows the double hip used in a traditional stepping punch. Beautiful dynamic motion.

All the best,

Iain

Kimura – Oizuki

Full Video

Marc
Marc's picture

Another example from Rick Hotton showing the point of rotation.

Chikara Andrew
Chikara Andrew's picture

Iain, thanks for posting that clip of Kimura, I've not seen that one before. Footage of Kimura seems to be rare and looking at that I would say its probably from the early 70's when he was really developing Shukokai in the UK.

My club still has some of those old impact pads made from insulation and tied with a belt, they are as much a conditioning exercise for the pad holder as they are for the puncher!

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Roman P wrote:
The question of the optimal way to transfer energy in the context of martial arts is indeed important (sadly, there are multiple books on biomechanics of popular command sports like football or baseball, or Olympic disciplines of disc and spear throwing, but martial arts and even boxing are rarely a focus of such studies) …

… I wish I had a thorough knowledge of biomechanics, kinesiology and impact physics to definitely determine which way of striking or which type of body coordination is better...

Kimura was subject to such a study. I knew there was photographs of this somewhere, but I could not find them. I spoke to Peter Consterdine who provided the photos below. In them you can see the experiment being explained and the testing that Kimura underwent as part of it. On the bottom left photo, the person sitting next to Kimura is Chōjirō Tani. Tani was Kimurai’s instructor and a student of Kenwa Mabuni.

In 2005 I interviewed Haruyoshi Yamada (also a student of Tani’s) and I asked him, “What are the main differences between Mabuni’s Shito-Ryu and Tani’s Shukokai?”

HARUYOSHI YAMADA: Tani Sensei was a high-school teacher and he therefore had a good understanding of physics. Tani Sensei was the first person to approach both Karate technique and body movement in a very scientific way. These innovations resulted in Tani Sensei placing a high emphasis on mental focus and scientific body movement. The combination of Tani’s knowledge of Karate, his knowledge of physics, and his understanding of how to communicate effectively meant that he was able to develop Shito-Ryu.

The acceleration and dynamic impact developed by Tani Sensei’s innovations was extremely impressive. Tani Sensei was very intelligent and knew that this modern and logical approach would give Shukokai a wide appeal. Tani Sensei was a great innovator and as a result Shukokai was less static and more dynamic than the Karate he originally learnt.”

Kimura followed in his teacher’s footsteps and the “double-hip” was one of his further developments. This not only comes from building on what went before and dojo experimentation, but also – as the photos show – from a genuine scientific study of impact.

Personally, I’ve yet to come across a method as efficient and logical (which is why it has become part of my karate). In addition to the end result, I also admire the process through which the method was devised. It was not a case of “unquestioned tradition” but instead it came from an openness to question and a quest to further improve. The application of local thought, scientific testing and undeniable results makes the double hip very special. It is also that process of continual improvement and “building on the shoulders of giants” that karate as a whole needs if it not to stagnate.

All the best,

Iain

Uqksu
Uqksu's picture

In relation to where this topic thread began, I have been exposed to the terminology of the hip hinging at the one side of the body for gyakuzuki, not at the center to ensure no part of the body is moving backwards while punching. A good number of styles out there seem to hinge at center (which gives technique length - hence more so the tournamnet styles).

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