Pinan Nidan application drills

Do you have a video clip of how or when then move is performed? :-)

took longer to get back to this than i expected, try the following links...

The Kyokushin version is the closest stylistically to what we do, but in the last 4 techniques (shuto mawashi uke) we do it differently. will see if i can find some of that too.

cheers.

will have to upload a photo of the hand position before the "throw". that seems to be the key difference.

I could be wrong but when you consider that Mabuni was one of Itosu's main students and looking at the difference between Shito-ryu and for want of a better example the Kyokushin one, it just seems to me that perhaps this is one example of a modern master (ie Oyama) making changes for the sake of perhaps putting their own stamp on something but perhaps inadvertently moving away from the original intent?

too cheeky? perhaps...please be assured there is absolutely NO disrespect intended.

Dave

Hey Dave

Those shutos remind me of the way we did them in TKD 30 years ago (I no longer practise it so I don't know if they're still done that way on the WTF).

Perhaps then Oyama brought them into Kyokushinkai from Korea, his home country? Just a guess.

Personally I've always found that way of executing the technique to be a little odd combatively compared to the Wado/Shoto, etc variations. The second to last move of Bassai/Passai has a similar 'reverse' shuto movement as part of a sequence of more standard ones and one way our group looks at that is as a throw away after already having gained control of the opponent.

However, that is a variation movement on the standard (for us) shuto movement. So, I have no idea why this circular through the rear movement is the standard one for Kyokushinkai. Maybe you're right that it was simply a variation that Oyama wanted to do to make his style/method different.

Jon Sloan wrote:

Hey Dave

Those shutos remind me of the way we did them in TKD 30 years ago (I no longer practise it so I don't know if they're still done that way on the WTF).

Perhaps then Oyama brought them into Kyokushinkai from Korea, his home country? Just a guess.

Thanks John, you could imagine that your comment sent me on a spate of Youtube viewing, searching under "pyong ahn/an" and variations. I know Sensei Iain has taught just recently with Chuck Norris' organisation, and it was interesting seein various Korean versions which mostly seemed to be Tang So Do and some TKD. interesting.

the four movements at the end of their versions usually had hand actions more in keeping with Shoto, ie no circular "throw-like" action

Searching Kyokushin specific  info so far has been frustrating, various videos and pictures of the solo technique but no footage of performance with a partner. for example...

http://www.ehow.com/video_2368653_low-leg-shuto-mawashi-uke.html?wa%5Fvlsrc=continuous&pid=1&wa%5Fvrid=4e855334%2D703c%2D4dc1%2Db65d%2D31b06a4e30b5&cp=1

would love some help if anyone finds some footage.

Dave

Hey Dave,

Back when I started TKD the patterns were 'Palgwe" then a year or so (?) later became 'Taegeuk". If you search on Youtube for Palgwe you can find things like these

As you can see the chambering for the shuto is very similar to the versions you referenced - all done from the rear with both hands swung through to the front. Not quite as circular as your ref but very close.

Maybe searches around bunkai from these older WTF TKD patterns may be fruitful.

Cheers

Jon

The way we do the Pinan Sono Ni is the Shuto mawashi uke, however, in certain Kyokushin Organization do Shuto Uke like in Shotokans syllabus, but the Shuto mawashi uke can be anything for bunkai instruction. It can be a deflect with one hand shotei uke while the other hand strikes with seiken or shuto, or simply a taitoshi throw like in judo and many other venues.

I do a Kyokushin offshoot (Shidokan) and have the same "issue". The movement is so different to what you get in Wado or Shotokan that the bunkai Iain shows isn't applicable IMHO.

It's doubly annoying because the shuto uke seems to be a core movement in Iain's stuff and is often the move that is returned to after, or serves as a foundation for, other bunkai.

Personally I just take it as an anomaly of the way styles developed without good bunkai and often practice the Pinan's of Shidokan with a shuto uke more like you get in Wado or Shotokan. I've never really liked the shuto mawashi anyway so it doesn't seem like to bad an adjustment. :)

Thanks PA Smith and Karate10,

Strangely on some Kyokushin forums and sites, it (shuto mawashi uke) is described as a "signature move" of Kyokushin but there is not much information regarding it's application other than what's already been described.

I get the bunkai that refers to deflecting and redirecting a kick but in practice i've found that exceedingly hard to do, what tennis players would decsribe as a low percentage play. As previously stated, it seems at odds wr ith the methodolgy thus far (as taught by Iain), ie seize the initiative back, destroy uke's balance and capacity to respond and finish the fight by methods X, Y or Z...

I tell my kids that uncomfortable feeling in their brains when they're doing school homework is called "learning", lets hope i come out of this wiser and a better karateka!, more experimenting required...

Seeing as Kyokushin (and its derivatives) is pretty common it'd be nice of Iain to have a look at this movement and see if he can reconcile it with the other Pinan bunkai. Hint, hint.

If I remember correctly this is about the only major distinction between the Kyokushin and Wado/Shoto way of doing the Pinans/Heians? There's probably others though.

Thanks PASmith,

couldnt have put it better myself...Mr. Abernethy? are you there??? hahaha...

I think you are right though, this seems to be the main difference in technique between the Kyokushin take on the Pinans notwithstanding stylistic variables such as stance, position of limbs etc. Those factors are pretty simple to reconcile IMHO...but this issue is something of a roadblock...

my next step is to drum up a willing volunteer to let me explore courtesy of their proffered limbs...

lets see how i get on!

dave

PASmith wrote:

Seeing as Kyokushin (and its derivatives) is pretty common it'd be nice of Iain to have a look at this movement and see if he can reconcile it with the other Pinan bunkai. Hint, hint.

dfallen wrote:

Thanks PASmith,

couldnt have put it better myself...Mr. Abernethy? are you there??? hahaha...

I’m here :-) I do read every post here, but don’t always have time to contribute to every thread. Today is also a day where time is sparse, but I’ll quickly share a few thoughts in the hope they are of some use.

One thing is that all styles have a “standard method” of performing the various motions. This is important as having a fixed “datum” to emulate in solo practise ensures kata practise helps to develop body control / awareness. In actual conflict those motions should be applied in a way relevant to the context and not in the fixed way of the kata i.e. if the enemy’s is tall the strike will need to be higher than it is in the solo kata so that the target is hit.

Many of the old masters talked about this need to “not be shackled by the rituals of kata, but instead to move freely according to the opponent’s strength and weaknesses” (to quote Nakasone). Funakoshi’s “Always perform kata exactly, combat is another matter” is also relevant.

In Kyokushin is the circular motion part of the standardisation of style? Or has it been a deliberate alteration to make one possible application prevalent? If it’s the former, then we’d need to look beyond the “datum version” and also include all the possible applications for the motion as it appears in all styles (as we always should). Some of the stuff in the video below may therefore be useful.

If we want to take the view there should be a “primary Kyokushin application” then I would focus on there fact that the circular motion backward results in the head being pretty well covered up. I’ve taken a still from the video above to show that. The lead arm and shoulder covers both sides of the jaw (a little like Rory Miller’s “Dracula’s Cape” entry). The rear arm also helps covers one side of the head; so you’d perform the shuto-uke on whatever side was most relevant.  You can therefore crash in with the head covered to cut through the mess, and as the arms come off the top of the circle you’d push the enemy’s now located limbs (because the will have crashed into yours) out of the way to clear a path for the shuto strike (like the video below).

In the kata the circle is full and that would strike me as a good idea because you are then practising assuming the cover from all of the 360 degrees that the arms may find themselves located in actual conflict. To give one example, the circling back would be relevant if the enemy had slapped down your fence during the dialogue stages which would necessitate the crash and cover. The cover would need to be assumed from anywhere, so doing it on an arch in the solo form could make sense.

dfallen wrote:

My problem with this however is that it doesnt seem a good match with the context of the bunkai thus far. ie up close and personal ..

When broken down the Kyokushin Shoto does have a look of a very stylised “cover, crash, smash” to me. That’s what I’d go with for a “primary Kyokushin application” and it is certainly a workable up-close and personal methodology.

I hope that’s of some use?

All the best,

Iain

PS Here is that video mentioned above to show some other basic shuto-drills to illustrate the theme of controlling the limb to open up the target. The “Kyokushin application” discussed above would largely be the same, with the exception of that fact there is a cover and crash preceding it.

Thanks so much, your time is very much appreciated!

I guess i was having trouble reconciling the circular motion (since we're taught to "scoop in and throw away" a mae geri...a difficult thing to do in the heat of the moment) with limb control principles.

I like the idea of the crash entry you propose, it fits much better with the notion of the kata demonstrating various ways to regain and maintain dominance.

I will also continue to experiment with seizing the arm and rotating the forearm as part of the circular movement, similar to the wristlocks you demonstrate in the videos, coupled wiht the strike/shuto-uke implied with the top hand.

Again, thanks so much for your time!

Dave

The "cover, crash, smash" is exactly how I usually apply this.  One drill I use to work this is to have your partner flurry punches (of whatever sort) while you wrap the head with the arms and drive into them, then pick a side (based on their attacks) and drop the hands through the second half of the shuto motion to clear and strike the neck.  There are other kata in kyokushin that use only the second half of the movement (skipping the lower part of the circle), and to me this reinforces this idea. 

Excellent clarification and video Iain.......I will keep that in mind Sir =)

Dillon wrote:

The "cover, crash, smash" is exactly how I usually apply this.  One drill I use to work this is to have your partner flurry punches (of whatever sort) while you wrap the head with the arms and drive into them, then pick a side (based on their attacks) and drop the hands through the second half of the shuto motion to clear and strike the neck.

That’s exactly what I envisaged and it’s nice to know others are drilling it that way. Brilliant! Thanks for sharing!

All the best,

Iain

dfallen wrote:

Thanks so much, your time is very much appreciated!

You're most welcome! I'm pleased that was of some use to you :-)

From speaking with Kyokushin Karateka on other forums, Bunkai is not a precidence in Kata performance. I would love to comment but the Pinan Series is not part of my syllabus. I had it told to me was the movement was a bit like a double hooking block, I know the same technique appears in Kanku Dai and Bassai Dai in the Kyokushin Syllabus where they practice those kata

I'd like to second some thanks to Iain for sparing the time on this. Isn't the internet an amazing thing?

Some great ideas too. Lots to digest.

PASmith wrote:

I'd like to second some thanks to Iain for sparing the time on this. Isn't the internet an amazing thing? 

Some great ideas too. Lots to digest.

You're most welcome!

As a Kyokushin Karateka I too was originally told about the grabbing defense against a mae geri, the kia is at the top of the of the circle and the arms then settle into the finished place. But I was also told use the movement as you wish, this includes only using part of the movement and using the movement as a small circle. After much searching a few years ago on the good old favourite Youtube I noticed that Shuto mawashi uke is used a lot in Aikido, in fact goig back to my earlier comment of using the movement as small circle you will find that it is the old favourite of a grab from an attacker to either hand and your defence of trapping with your spare hand, drawing the hands across and in front of you and then throwing using the same direction you came from ( difficult to discribe but i hope you get the picture, it is one of the first defences against a grab you learn). I hope this offers some help. P.S If you look at Pinan ni and the shuto mawashi uke's down the middle, in Aikido it is common to do this movement more than once, one after the other to the same person just to really mess them up.

thanks Dogtail71

i found the following on the Tube which whilst a little different to the Kyokushin shuto mawashi uke, holds tru to the principles i think.

ie, front hand brushing/guiding/seizing the incoming or located limb, the rear hand seizing and controlling it. whilst shifting weight back into neko ashi dach to utilise one's body weight to disrupt uke's balance the rear hand lifts and rotates to begin moving them to a point of no return whilst the front hand controls and completes the movement. hopefully the following video helps...

regards, Dave