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Tau
Tau's picture
Matsukaze & Jiroku

I'm just seeking some information on these kata as there's very little available.

I first learned Karate Kata from my first Jujitsu Sensei who had trained in Wado Ryu and Shukukai. From him I learned and graded in the Pinan Kata. I also learned (but never graded on) the Kata Matsukaze and Jiroku. I now understand these to be Shito Ryu kata. The way that I see them performed on YouTube is similar, but not the same, as I how I was taught them also I'm not 100% sure of them anyway.

Can anyone tell me more of their history? Is there value in studying their Bunkai or will I find their Bunkai in other more common kata that I probably already know?

Thanks in advance.

Andy_R
Andy_R's picture

Hi,

I have just had a quick look at the above kata's on youtube.  They seem to me to be a collection of techniques from other Kata such as Kushuanku (the opening sequence of Matsukaze, the sequence of three Shuto Uke's and the final position).  They both seem to have elements of Rohai, Wanshu, Chinto and the Pinans Also.

If you look at the movements before and after what you already recognise it could open up alternate variations of the Bunkai you are already practising, and maybe differing opening and finishing options?

As I say i've only had a quick look at the videos on youtube I dont personally know the Kata's and infact i'd never heard of them until your post.

Hope that's on OK response.

Speak Soon

Andy

Jason Lester
Jason Lester's picture

Hi Tau,

as you pointed out theses are Shito-Ryu / Shukokai Katas.

Juroku, sometimes also known as Jurokono was created by Kenwa Mabuni and means 16 or 16 hands, this refering to the 16 steps in the Kata. I graded this Kata for 3rd Kyu in Shukokai under Eddie Daniels.

Matsukaze, meaning pine wind or pine in the wind is a very old Kata. Its orginal name is Wankan, meaning Kings Crown,  this is not to be confused with the Shotokan version of Wankan. This Kata when performed is ment to create the shape of a crown, hence the name, if looking from an ariel view this is easily spotted.

Wanken (matsukaze) is said to be many Okinawans masters favourite Kata, due to its age and many ancient guards knew this Kata in order to protect Kings as the Kata's fighting tactics are aimed at the three main vital points on the human body.

How much of this information about Wankan (matsukaze) is correct i cannot say, however i hope it is of interest.

Kind regards,

Jason

ps: many thanks again for taking your time to teach a section at our instructors course in may.

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

Hi Guys,

I have no real experience of these kata, i did learn Matsukaze about 24 years ago but not in depth, not to test and I don't recall anything about it (This was with Shito Ryu Kenshikan).

Jason,

Wanken (matsukaze) is said to be many Okinawans masters favourite Kata, due to its age and many ancient guards knew this Kata in order to protect Kings as the Kata's fighting tactics are aimed at the three main vital points on the human body.

How much of this information about Wankan (matsukaze) is correct i cannot say, however i hope it is of interest.

Fair enough, you state you don't know how much of the information above is true, could I ask where you picked this info up from?

It sounds like made up stuff to me, theres alot of that on the net around karate, and even more when you ask 'Sensei' the history of the kata, many, many make stuff up to not lose face, or to send people on a little journey...........

Until we get sources and look at this stuff a little more critically- it is not of interest to me.

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

Ok,

I just did a quick youtube adventure!

Nice example of Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (Wankan/Okan kata)

The Shito ryu Matzukaza version

As a note I have always considered Wankan/Okan to be of TomariTe lineage as it does not feature in the ShuriTe lineage. All Shorin Ryu of course.

Tau
Tau's picture

Andy_R wrote:
They seem to me to be a collection of techniques from other Kata such as Kushuanku (the opening sequence of Matsukaze, the sequence of three Shuto Uke's and the final position).  They both seem to have elements of Rohai, Wanshu, Chinto and the Pinans Also.

I don't know Rohai or Wanshu at all.

Andy_R wrote:
If you look at the movements before and after what you already recognise it could open up alternate variations of the Bunkai you are already practising, and maybe differing opening and finishing options?

A bit like the -Sho Kata then? Interesting.

Tau
Tau's picture

Jason Lester wrote:
Juroku, sometimes also known as Jurokono

We used to pronounce it "Jrokanuh" so that makes sense.

Jason wrote:
I graded this Kata for 3rd Kyu in Shukokai under Eddie Daniels.

I THINK Sensei Daniels was one of my Sensei's Sensei. I am going back to the late 80s/early 90s now. This would have been in the Ludlow area.

Jason wrote:
How much of this information about Wankan (matsukaze) is correct i cannot say, however i hope it is of interest.

Yes. Absolutely. Thanks

Jason wrote:
ps: many thanks again for taking your time to teach a section at our instructors course in may.

You're welcome. It was fun.

Jason Lester
Jason Lester's picture

Hi Tau,

thanks for the kind reply, glad it was of interest.

Hi Jim,

im always honest when i post topics or replys and would not try to mislead anyone, hence why i clearly stated that i cannont be sure how much truth is in the information i provided. As for the source as to wear i got the information this i clearly cannot remember as i was in my teens when either i read it in a Karate book or an instructor passed on the information so im just passing on what was given, there is no concrete evidence to support it or the fact if it was made up.

Any Kata's we know have been passed down to us, regardless of the history of them we really shouldnt be concerned with that because the deeper we dig the more confusing and complicated it gets. there are a few very dedicated keyboard martial artist who spend to much time tapping away when they should be spending more time in the Dojo training.

Of course the history of Karate and the Kata's are of great interest and much is gained by sharing information, however, one gets to a point were the history becomes extremly hazy, wheather we study Kata for the realistic approach or for competition this is no concern, what matters is we continue to train hard and pass on the knowledge that has been passed down to us but more importantly make the Kata work for us. the only way anyone can get really good at karate is to train and train and train and train, in this some can talk the talk but cannot walk the walk etc as they are to wrapped up and concerned about the history of karate, we need to be concentrating on the now and not worrying about the history and what kata came from were, after all having a great knowledge of the history of karate is not going to save one in a real combat situation.

Kind regards,

Jason

AndyC
AndyC's picture

Hi Jason,

Just putting my thoughts into this. You state "regardless of the history of them we really shouldnt be concerned with that because the deeper we dig the more confusing and complicated it gets".

My view is that Karate is a very individual thing and means many things to many people. I for one, find the history of the art (up to and including the modern variants) and it's associated kata fascinating and feel that it's vitally important to my development as a rounded karateka to at least investigate as much as possible. Yes, it can get confusing and complicated - but isn't that the point? Isn't Karate supposed to be a lifelong endeavour? 

Cheers

Andy

Andy_R
Andy_R's picture

Hi Tau, I think if you dont know the Kata i mentioned earlier then maybe studying the ones in question would be worthwhile. Im not saying they are not worth while if you do know Rohai / Wanshu though, im sure these Kata have good information to pass on. Yeah I think your correct in saying they are like the Sho Kata, each Kata records an individual fighting system and each individual has their own fighting style so the performance of movements that have the same posture may vary in application.

Jason Lester
Jason Lester's picture

Hi AndyC

i agree with you totally, karate does indeed mean different things to different people and my apologies if i have affended anyone with my view as it were not my intent.

One doing their research and learning as much as possible is important as i have been studying the history of karate since i was a child and will continue to do so as i find it extremley interesting, being a professional karate-ka its my job to give those who i teach the best possible tuition and information i can. I share what i can and what may be of interest to others on this site as others do as this is what its for, however, there are some keyboard martial artist who like to share nothing and criticize everyone else's efforts in which i think is most unfair. I am not a karate historian nor do i claim to be, im just a practicing karate-ka who likes to share my ideas and what little information i have to others in a hope it may of be of interest. for those who just slate others i have no time for and are of no interest to me.

Wankan (matsukaze) is an extremly old Kata and finding information on this kata is not easy, if anyone has any further information it would be of great interest.

In Shukokai Matsukaze (wankan) and jurokono are classed as brown belt Katas, however, i believe in Shito-Ryu they are advanced Kata but i very well may be wrong.

Kind regards,

Jason

Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

Some interesting Kata, I can see some interesting Bunkai to them and reminds me of a Tang Soo Do Form I used to practice (its ok Jim I'm not going to rattle your cage and Claim Okinawan Lineage with the Korean Form), it seems to have elements of many kata within it.

Tau
Tau's picture

Andy_R wrote:
I think if you dont know the Kata i mentioned earlier then maybe studying the ones in question would be worthwhile. Im not saying they are not worth while if you do know Rohai / Wanshu though, im sure these Kata have good information to pass on. Yeah I think your correct in saying they are like the Sho Kata, each Kata records an individual fighting system and each individual has their own fighting style so the performance of movements that have the same posture may vary in application.

Andy I'm going to disagree with you here, but purely because of my personal level of competence. I take your point entirely and for another practitioner your advice may be sound.

I learned these kata over 15 years ago and haven't kept competence. I managed to practice the Pinan kata often enough that I've maintained memory of how they go, endorsed by subsequently learning the Heian. I can "walk" through them but don't have confidence that what I'm doing is correct. And I have no-one to put me right. Whereas the kata you mentioned are more widely practiced and studied and I'm sure I could find someone that could teach them to me if necessary or highly desired (I've currently set my sights on learning Gankanku, as you know.)

I suppose that does present a possible future project - if they aren't well understood and their Bunkai hasn't been analysed then maybe I should make that something to do at some point. I could be the guy that does it.

Andy_R
Andy_R's picture
Hi Tau, That sounds like a good future plan, I am a part of a good bunch of people who meet up regularly to go through bunkai drills to share / develop what we are currently practicing. If ever you want to come ovet and try out some drills for these Kata (once you are up and running with them) feel free to give me a call and ill let you know when were meeting up. I would look forward to seeing what you come up with. Andy
shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

No sweat Jason,

You did clarify that you didn't know if this stuff is true, but if you share stuff on a internet discussion forum- expect people to simply ask your source.

I then followed with an example of the Matsubayashi version, and Shito Ryu version of the kata, to help the thread along?

For all I know Mr Miyagi himself may have visited and you trained with him and he told you this, make no mistake Okinawan, Japanese Sensei love a story as much as the next person.

I do realise I come across as critical to some of you, thats because I 'belong' to a traditional Okinawan Ryu, this doesn't mean I know it all, and am super deadly.

In fact I happily admit there are more effective ways to train if one is after super deadly. These ways would have little to do with Okinawan Karate!

Ian will keep me in check, have no worries about that!

julio
julio's picture

Hi,

This is the version I know and practice of Juroku

As far as I know, it was created by Mabuni when he moved to mainlan Japan, to attract students. That is, I would expect its bunkai to be something simple and easy to show.