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Michael Rust
Michael Rust's picture
Kata a Complete Fighting System

Would if fair to say that because each Kata is a complete fighting system in their own right and because different kata's focus on different principles; however with a lot of overlapping techniques that studying one kata deep enough could arm a person with enough skills necessary to deal with any type of self defence situation ?

Now if we were to study that one Kata while also practicing all your basics and other drills would that be a sufficient formula for self defence ? We know that no matter the kata if applied properly it's going to put the opponent in a vulnerable position. So how many kata do we really need to study ? It's an interesting question that has been discussed before. Maybe one or two is plenty if studied correctly. So why do we feel the need to have 10 or 20 to learn ?

I do get the idea of alternative ways of looking at things and other options for techniques ect, but if this method is good enough for the old masters why not us ?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

In short, we don’t need to study many kata because:

A – The combative principles encapsulated by the examples of the kata are able to be applied in innumerable circumstances when internalised.

B – Really situations are short and explosive and hence reward directness and simplicity.

However, there is a case for studying more kata for the benefit of seeing alternate examples of those principles. It’s not necessary, but it can be useful.

Away from self-protection, it can be enjoyable to study more kata and it can also help preserve information for future generations.

In my case, I focus on the deep study of a small number, but I supplement that with a more superficial study of others, and surface only practise of yet more. That’s what works for me practically and from a personal enjoyment perspective.

There’s a more in-depth discussion on my thoughts around this at the beginning of this recent podcast:

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/your-questions-podcast

All the best,

Iain

MCM180
MCM180's picture

For 1st Dan at my dojo, I need to learn the 5 Heians, plus Tekki shodan and (I think) at least one of Bassaidai, Kankudai, Empi, Jion.

I'd like to earn the black belt. But my goal is self-defense first, fitness second. Is there benefit in biasing my efforts toward knowing, say, Heian really well rather than studying the more "advanced" kata and delaying belt advancement? Might that depend on the specific instruction I get at my dojo?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

MCM180 wrote:
I'd like to earn the black belt. But my goal is self-defense first, fitness second. Is there benefit in biasing my efforts toward knowing, say, Heian really well rather than studying the more "advanced" kata and delaying belt advancement? Might that depend on the specific instruction I get at my dojo?

That’s a very important point. Those of us who are the “masters of our own ships” can decide what we and our students will be practising. Those who are students within a given group obviously have to follow the curriculum of that group.

If I were you, I’d follow the criteria of your dojo (so you don’t delay progress toward the point where you have a little more autonomy) but supplement that with personal study / small group practise of the applications of the Heians. Learning the “advanced kata” to a level of “competent performance” will not unduly take away from the benefits of that.

All the best,

Iain

MCM180
MCM180's picture

Thanks, Iain Sensei. 

I'd love to have the time and money for private lessons. Until then, follow the curriculum it is. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
… but supplement that with personal study / small group practise of the applications of the Heians.

MCM180 wrote:
I'd love to have the time and money for private lessons. Until then, follow the curriculum it is.

You’re most welcome! I’m pleased that was useful.

As regards the above, I was not suggesting private lessons under an instructor you were paying for their time, but an informal get together with fellow students.

I know many people who, in addition to classes, get together every now and again to explore given topics and practise things they may not be able to in as much depth in class. Such “study groups” can be very useful for those committed to a curriculum, but who also want to explore other areas.

You could ask some fellow students if they want to get together to do some addition training including the study and practise of bunkai drills? Does that make sense?

All the best,

Iain

MCM180
MCM180's picture

It does; thanks again. 

-Christian

OnlySeisan
OnlySeisan's picture

I practice only one kata. I'm one of a very few number of people who practice this way.

People think it's insufficient because they believe more is better.

Karate instructors think it's insufficient because they'd run out of things to sell.

It's possible to learn from other kata and styles without practicing them and we have this wonderful thing called the internet to preserve kata. Plus you can find dozens of kata at any strip mall karate studio.

All you really need to be able to learn karate is a kata, some training partners, some patience and a whole lot of hard work.

Why would you pay anyone for that?

I'm sure I'll get flak from this, but then again what would they know about only practicing one kata? All they have is what they've read in books, they don't have experience.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

OnlySeisan wrote:
I practice only one kata. I'm one of a very few number of people who practice this way.

Today that would be true, but it’s a very “traditional” way of practise.

OnlySeisan wrote:
People think it's insufficient because they believe more is better.

Some definitely think so, but I think it would be fair to say that many are able to understand that depth of understanding is important too. Certainly many here would be of that view.

Funakoshi remarked that, “Nowadays people study wide and shallow, but in the past they studied narrow and deep.” He also said, “Once you master one technique, you will realise its close relationship to all other techniques” and told a story about a student of poetry who only knew one poem in “Karate-Do: My Way of Life”. The moral of the story being that knowing one poem and being able to recite it perfectly was better that knowing many superficially; and it’s the same with kata.

So it’s maybe misleading to say “people” and it would be better to say, “some people”.

OnlySeisan wrote:
Karate instructors think it's insufficient because they'd run out of things to sell.

Many instructors understand that depth of learning takes time too, so I’d suggest it’s not accurate to put all “karate instructors” into a single category.

It’s also not fair to say “karate instructors” base their curriculum entirely on saleability. The bad examples may do. But most, even those who are professional teachers, believe in what they teach. They love what they do and want to serve students and karate to the maximum possible extent; and to do that you need more hours and hence the “day job” has to go and so they charge for their time.

If anyone gets into karate solely for the money then they are barking up the wrong tree. There are far easier ways to make money.

In my case, if I only got into this for the “bunkai billions” then I made a very bad choice ;-)

OnlySeisan wrote:
It's possible to learn from other kata and styles without practicing them and we have this wonderful thing called the internet to preserve kata.

A video helps, but – as we all know – you can’t learn the nuances of a kata without the input of an instructor. There’s also the fact that media is not actually that good a way to preserve things long term; as anyone with kata on VHS tapes will soon be able to attest.

Not everyone needs to be preserve every kata. Not everyone needs to study every kata in depth. We just need to keep them alive as a collective. Some maintain the depth of smaller parts of karate; some will ensure the breadth is maintained.

OnlySeisan wrote:
All you really need to be able to learn karate is a kata, some training partners, some patience and a whole lot of hard work. Why would you pay anyone for that?

Because taking time to learn something requires time and investment. I’ve spent huge amounts of money traveling to train and to seek out the best instruction I can. I’ve bought mats, pads, kick shields, etc for my students to use. I pay to rent out places to train; who in turn have to pay rates, heating bills, lighting bills, etc.

A fair price for a fair product is just and ethical. Expecting something to be given for free, when others had to invest to get it, turns the teacher / student dynamic upside down and, to me, suggests an unhealthy sense of entitlement.

Likewise, charging students exorbitant prices for rubbish is also not good. However, when the instructor has invested huge amount of time, effort and money to acquire knowledge it’s neither ethical nor practical to say it should be given away for free.

I provide better instruction for those that train with me because I am at this fulltime. If I had to spend the majority of my time at work – instead of training, researching, teaching, producing material (much of which is free as it happens) – then I’d be teaching lower quality information to less people. The fact I charge for some of what I do means that what I do has more influence and value.

As an example, people are posting here and reading this because I’ve charged for instruction, and hence can afford to build and run this website. If this website is of value to people, then it needs to be remembered it’s only here because I charge for instruction. If I didn’t, there could be no website, no podcasts, no YouTube videos, etc.

Ultimately, the bottom line is that if people don’t like what I do, they can simply stay away from seminars, don’t buy any DVDs, etc. There’s no element of compulsion.

It’s the same with just about anything you can think of. I was an electrician. It took me time and effort to learn that trade. Because I was at it fulltime, I was good at it. As a result I offered by services to those who wanted to pay me for them. They didn’t have to, but they chose to pay me because they recognised I had skills they needed, but they did not have themselves. I’ve never understood why people think martial arts should be different?

People tend to point to the bad examples of greedy, unethical, and poor quality martial arts instructors. However, that’s like saying, “I know this electrician who is a cowboy who ripped off his clients, and therefore all electricians should never be paid for their work.” That’s obviously faulty logic, because the good electricians are good because they have devoted time to learning the trade correctly. If no electricians got paid, then all of them need income from elsewhere and the trade drops in quality because no one can afford to spend the majority of their time on it.

There are good “part time” instructors too of course, but most of those will charge for classes too. There are very few who teach entirely for free. And those that do will not have much influence or longevity because you need money to get by in the world.

I did a full podcast on this a while ago for those interested:

 http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/money-and-martial-arts-podcast

OnlySeisan wrote:
I'm sure I'll get flak from this, but then again what would they know about only practicing one kata? All they have is what they've read in books, they don't have experience.

You won’t get flack for it here. I think most can see the value in it and its traditional justification. However, other approaches have value in other ways too.

It would not be right if people were to say to you, “What does he know about practicing more than one kata because he only practises one?” and imply your opinion on practicing more than one kata was therefore immediately invalid. I think your approach has a lot of validity and such dismal would be a false logic. It works the other way around too though.

I don’t think you can dismiss the validity of the argument of those who think differently (entirely or in part) by saying “what would they know” simply because they have reached different conclusions.

People who reach different conclusions can do so entirely legitimately, and can legitimacy critique the conclusions of others from their alternative position … as you are doing yourself.

To say, “you must agree and do as I do, before you can legitimately critique me” is obviously problematic.

All the best,

Iain

MCM180
MCM180's picture

Iain Sensei,

Even if a kata is a complete fighting system, it may have weaknesses. Would there be value in maybe finding two kata that complement each other? For example, and these are only examples, one kata or kata series might be better suited for a situation in a crowded setting whereas another might work better with more space. (Or some other set of relative strengths and weaknesses may exist - the specific example might not be a good one, but I think you get the idea.)

That way, one could still study narrow and deep, but maybe not quite as narrowly, and get some benefit from other approaches.

OnlySeisan, I understand your position, and I won't give you any flak. I pay for what I pay for in part for the reasons Iain Sensei mentions, and also because I don't have the time to cultivate the training relationships & other resources you may have. So in effect, I pay someone to provide training partners and an environment that would take me lots of time to make by myself (in addition to the quality of instruction, etc.). I'm trading off one resource (money) for a scarcer one (time). At this point in my life, I have more money than time. (So I should probably stay off internet chat forums, which eat up my time...)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

MCM180 wrote:
Even if a kata is a complete fighting system, it may have weaknesses. Would there be value in maybe finding two kata that complement each other? For example, and these are only examples, one kata or kata series might be better suited for a situation in a crowded setting whereas another might work better with more space. (Or some other set of relative strengths and weaknesses may exist - the specific example might not be a good one, but I think you get the idea.)

That’s an interesting point!

Personally I find the core combative principles we find in kata are pretty uniform because the same problem is always going to yield the same solutions.

I’d also steer away from categorising kata that way i.e. good for enclosed spaces, etc. That’s a common problem today and we frequently see things like, “kata A is good for small people”, “kata B is for armed enemies”, “kata C is for fighting on a boat”, etc. It’s a common fault in thinking that comes from when the kata were all gathered together into the modern styles.

We need to remember that the kata preceded the styles and we not developed by committee i.e. “If you make a kata for X, I will make a kata for Y”. The kata were made by different people, in different locations, in differing points in history. Each is its own self-contained entity and many were created with no knowledge of their “future counterparts” in the modern styles.

All kata are standalone systems and hence they don’t specialise on one specific area. The principles manifest by the various examples are common. The use of those principles in differing situations (i.e. crowded or in open space) is a tactical matter. All kata can fulfil those requirements when applied with the right tactics.

The first 15 mins or so of the most recent podcast addresses the pros and cons of the various approaches to the number of kata studied, including how two or more kata can help by providing other examples of common principles. You may find that worth a listen because it covers the very point you rise in more depth:

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/your-questions-podcast

I hope that helps.

All the best,

Iain

OnlySeisan
OnlySeisan's picture

My problem is not that you sell your services. My problem is that instructors make it a service that is never ending. Karate training should be like school. You take the classes, you pass the tests, you get certification and then you're free to practice how you like with the knowledge you're given.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.