Heian Yondan

I like it! It depends on whether your assailant is closing on your or trying to back off, I suppose. This method is definitely worth looking into.

Don't forget Lee that the 'fending off' hand doesn't have to be simply resting on him, it could be grabbing too.

Though, I suppose from a self protection within the law perspective, if he's backing off it may be better to let him go so you can both escape and so as to not articifically extend the conflict.

Hi Jon

In my experience when the head isn't cradled it can move with the strike and this absorbs some of the impact.  When the head movement is restricted - either by cradling or hitting someone's whose head is up against a wall - the shock has nowhere to go so the brain essentially bounces from one side of the skull to the other, causing a KO. Given the choice I would always cradle.

Regards

JWT

- Kata shouldn't be taken literally. I like what Mick's done here as opposed to what the is *normally* done

- My point is that cradling the head could actually reduce brain shake and would be relative ineffective if your sole intention is the knockout. I remain receptive to anyone disputing this

- However, I personally still like the "cradle." Firstly it teaches a princple, that principle being proprioceptive strikes (Tau) / datum setting (Abernethy). Secondly, by Mick's method you hit but lose control. By using the cradle, you retain control of the attacker.

Different perspectives and preferences.

JWT wrote:

In my experience when the head isn't cradled it can move with the strike and this absorbs some of the impact.  When the head movement is restricted - either by cradling or hitting someone's whose head is up against a wall - the shock has nowhere to go so the brain essentially bounces from one side of the skull to the other, causing a KO. Given the choice I would always cradle.

No, the opposite. You need to see the One Punch Knockout thread.

When you "cradle" or brace, the force is transmitted through the relatively solid skull. The brain will indeed shake a little with the shockwave, but not that much. When you don't brace, the head moves with the brain moving afterwards. I think the best way to explain it is if you experience sudden drop in altitude like say in an aircraft that hits a vacuum. The aircraft suddenly plummets and you leave your seat momentarily, only to drop back onto it after hitting your head on the ceiling if the aircraft is small enough. The aircraft is your skull and you're your brain. I'm sure there's a better analogy but that's the one that comes to mind.

Hmm, so I'd have to agree with Tau about the brain shake element. Though I think that brain shake is not exactly the right term. It's more of a brain twist. The brain is suspended in a jelly substance within the skull. So that when the skull is moved rapidly the brain doesn't move at the same speed. It has inertia due to the fluid and takes a split second to catch up, by which time the skull itself is travelling back in the direction it came. The brain suddenly decelerates and tries follow the skull back in that direction. That's the 'shake' to which we're referring. 

However I'd also say that Mick's method doesn't lose control as its easier than you'd think to stick to an opponent while you're applying pressure as he suggests. Also there's no reason why that datum setting hand can't be grabbing the opponent as opposed to just applying pressure to him. 

My training partners and I have played with this a bit and I think arrived at a nice compromise of sorts. Catching behind the head and supporting it as you strike with the elbow is a good application. This is where we start. As we develop the ability to do this we advance to gripping behind the neck for control. The movement pattern is exactly the same but you simply slide the hand down after finding the back of the head.
From this grip the head is semi-free to shake and twist upon impact but not free to escape. It also generates a fair amount of torque and potential damage to the neck itself.
And it happens to look a lot like the kata with the small variation of placing the strike just over the hand instead of in the palm.

Tau wrote:

No, the opposite. You need to see the One Punch Knockout thread.

When you "cradle" or brace, the force is transmitted through the relatively solid skull. The brain will indeed shake a little with the shockwave, but not that much. When you don't brace, the head moves with the brain moving afterwards. I think the best way to explain it is if you experience sudden drop in altitude like say in an aircraft that hits a vacuum. The aircraft suddenly plummets and you leave your seat momentarily, only to drop back onto it after hitting your head on the ceiling if the aircraft is small enough. The aircraft is your skull and you're your brain. I'm sure there's a better analogy but that's the one that comes to mind.

Will check it out.  Like I say - my personal experience has been that without a cradle, I roll with the hit and recover.  With the cradle - or a surface to rebound off (like a wall), I get knocked out.  I have always asumed that this was due to the brain moving in two directions with the shock rather than one and the effect on the brian stem.  Perhaps cradle is the wrong word then - it is movement, then a stop and rebound movement, whereas a cradle would imply no movement?

My students are still devastated that they didn't capture me getting knocked out in on camera (especially as the rest of that day's training was filmed).

I think fighting is a chaotic and messy affair, and as such if I can grab any part of someone's had and impact any part of the bottom of my elbow onto any part of the front of someone's head, then I'll be happy.

Paul Anderson wrote:

I think fighting is a chaotic and messy affair, and as such if I can grab any part of someone's had and impact any part of the bottom of my elbow onto any part of the front of someone's head, then I'll be happy.

Amen to that.

Well there's nothing like a little bit of empirical evidence...

Not sure if this forum allows image imbedding but here's a link to exactly what's being discussed here.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-agCktrr0ZY8/TxoCLlP79iI/AAAAAAAAHN4/KJvfYIB_CRs/s1600/2.gif

Seems cradling the head works pretty well for that chap. Although I think he's cradling the neck rather than the head? So the head is more free to move about? Either way...he gets the KO.

PASmith wrote:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-agCktrr0ZY8/TxoCLlP79iI/AAAAAAAAHN4/KJvfYIB_CRs/s1600/2.gif

Seems cradling the head works pretty well for that chap. Although I think he's cradling the neck rather than the head? So the head is more free to move about? Either way...he gets the KO.

That's a great video, especially for this thread. It looks like Dan Hardy but I can't work out what event that is.

I would argue that tori started by cradling the neck but as uke lost his senses the cradle became to the head. Either way, there's no arguing that it did the job.

It's Joseph Sandoval vs Nick Denis from a recent UFC on Fox (Guillard v Miller was the main billing).

Interesting thread guys, one thing to consider is the kick that preceeds the elbow in the kata, that IMO brings the head into 'cradle' range.

The older model its a front snap kick, the more modern versions show side thrust kicks which IMO doesn't set up the elbow so well re range.

I think I agree with Paul on this one..

This topic, although interesting, is in danger of becoming an argument about the number of angels you can fit on a pin head.

I think the main point is to ensure you get a hit with your elbow. so I think the two key principles here are:

1. Without a steadying hand, and in the chaos of actual combat, it is more likely you'll miss without the physical touch. 
2. having got a decent grip and some degree of control you can repeat the strike and maintain your momentum.