117 year old boxing footage

1.  White Speedo uses an exceptionally long, almost 'point fighting' type stance.  (Interesting how you have seen that re-emerge in today's MMA).  As the striking tactics used are almost exclusively 'long range', the 'interval' or starting gap between fighters is also noticeably larger than MoQR boxing.

2.  Both guys are as 'cut' as any of today's MMA fighters.  (interesting only in that I think that people tend to think that 'historic' fighters weren't in as good of shape as fighters today).

3.  The 'clinch break' you point out is basic thai boxing / ala BTS 'SPEAR", ala 'the frame' concept from G/BJJ-- in otherwords, its a HUMAN mechanic and both a 'natural', 'quick' and 'effective' thing to do in that position.  Moral:   New application for Shuto Uke!

4.  The only thing approximating a 'straight' cross I saw was from Black about 0:10.

5.  Black's 'duck-under' / weave at 0:26 was a neat entry to a takedown (I saw rear seated tackle) if that had been allowed.  As it was, it got him out of the corner but he doesn't capitalize on it.  Actually, I didn't see much that he did at all, white was definitely the aggressor and I score the round 15-0 white.     

Q.:  What do you suppose the pouch / flag white is wearing on his belt is?  (a.  Man Purse b.  competitor's flag c.  magic 'favor from his lady'? ) That stood out to me.  It's not big enough to hold his pants. (last observation, apparently the Japanese were not the only ones to train in their "tighty whiteys").

Cool clip, Iain, thanks for posting.

Very interesting footage...prior to 1883 a prolific chronicler of prize fighting was a man called Pierce Egan. His journalism of pugalism is second to none as he always wrote from a ringside view. His first book was in 1812 published in 1813 by "Smeeton" called Boxiana

As early as 1791 pugalism had gained momentum as an Empirical Fighting Art. Dan Mendoza opened the Lyceum Theatre in the Strand London specifically to demonstrate the art of sparring,and, fight exhibitions. The rest of Europe using weapons such as knives, swords, sticks, in thier repetoir, England claimed to be warriors with only thier fists.

Initially bouts were fought until they closed [the phrase clinch came later in years as boxing started to lay down rules of engagement]. A round usually ended when one man or both fell to the ground, which was followed by a 30 second interval. Because most falls were the result of a throw rather than a hit or a man fell due to a light blow gaining 30 second respites so early bare knuckle fights lasted longer than later gloved fights.

Jim Belcher and Bill Richmond were famous in those early years, and under the "Broughtons" rules lots of throws and grapples were permitted.

Those that followed these prize fighters were known as "The Fancy" and sported the colours of the fighter they followed.

Similar blocking,and countering techniques were used in boxing  that can be found in many karate basics.

Yours in Budo

Steve

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Fourthly, the ring is small. Not exactly a great deal of space when you get two fighters and the referee in there. Also interesting so see how the observers are practically in the ring too.

It was suggested on facebook that the small ring maybe due to the limitations of the camera? Because it had a fixed depth and field the ring (and the fight itself) were set up accordingly i.e. the point of the fight is to provide footage. Not something I’d thought of, but it makes sense!

All the best,

Iain

Great footage Iain - great find and thanks for sharing

The game has certainly changed/evolved depending whcih way you look at it.

The guard was very low, but as has already beed pointed out - alot of early knock downs were a result of throws, in which case, a longer guard would be better to help prevent throws perhaps?

The time allowed to recover after knock-downs was also far longer, which mean't fights would go on for many rounds.

Alot of elbows getting in the mix there too - the wild hooks making way for the old "accidental" elbow to land straight behind it.

Not sure what round of the fight this video is - it could have a baring on the long stances and the lack of active footwork and the big haymaker punches. If the guys are on the wrong side of 20 or 30 rounds and now looking for the big lucky finish - that would change their stances and their tactics somewhat??

Watching it again, it seems to me that white's lead hand is almost a 'fending' shielding use... i.e. he is not using it to fend like a modern boxer would, with a tapping jab, but he is still keeping it out there to push or ward the other guy away.

Looking at black, he seems to adopt what I would call a more 'classical' Pugilist's posture at a couple of points. (i.e. 0:21)

For some reason, this time around White reminded a little of Lyoto Machida... If you look at the following highlight reel, you can see some similarities in the striking.  (i.e. 2:47 +- when he has the guy on the cage, also freeze frame at 0:40)

Long stance, long distance, wide, 'wild' looping blows to enter around a center line guard from distance. The difference I see in the modern version is in the addition of the clinches,knees and shoots.

 Hi Iain, really good old video,enjoyed watching it.I,m not any type of expert, my understanding of old style boxing was that the rings ranged from 15ft to 18 ft corner to corner,normally depending on defending champions preference due to his fighting style. A good old brawler who would want to mix it up would choose the smaller ring, while  a light footed fighter would prefer a slightly larger ring. If my memory serves me right the largest ring to be used in modern day boxing was Sugar Ray Leonard against Roberto Duran ( who i was a fan of). was 24ft x 24ft. Sugar Ray was a dancer and light on his feet.

Old style fighters where what was called straight in line fighters, across the ring in a line with the jab first followed by a knockout punch.

Modern day style is to slowly guide your opponent with slightly circular little jabs and hooks, say using your left o drive them in a  circular motion towards that knockout right hook or vice versa.

Enjoy the posts. Many thanks for sharing them.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Fourthly, the ring is small. Not exactly a great deal of space when you get two fighters and the referee in there. Also interesting so see how the observers are practically in the ring too.

It was suggested on facebook that the small ring maybe due to the limitations of the camera? Because it had a fixed depth and field the ring (and the fight itself) were set up accordingly i.e. the point of the fight is to provide footage. Not something I’d thought of, but it makes sense!

All the best,

Iain

If they were only trying for the footage, then that would make sense. 

I brought this up to my grandfather (our family stems from some Irish boxers who came to America in the 1800's) and he said that the rings, if there was one, wasn't much more than what it took for the two men to punch, bob and weave and fall down (they rarely circled around from their starting point). Evasion wasn't a large part of the game, since most of the spectators just wanted to see them beat the hell out of one another. The lines that they drew on the floor to act as starting points were within reach of a normal person's jab - not at opposite ends of a 20ft. ring like they are today.

Miket,

your clip was also interesting as he obviously knows Bassai Dai. He shows a couple of moves in Bassai, but his tackles,elbow strikes and clinches also look Bassai-like. Or am I just seeing kata everywhere these days?

Do you know much about him/background etc? It does also have striking similarities to Iains clip.

Regards,

Stu.

Lyoto Machida's background is in Shotokan Karate. His father has a dojo in Brazil. You can see a video from youTube that shows him in a training session with his father...He should know Bassai Dai.

This is from Wikipedia...."The son of a Japanese Shotokan karate master, Yoshizo Machida (Machida Yoshiz), Machida utilizes a karate striking style that implements a wide Shotokan stance and an elusive strategy."

Migonz,

thanks for that. Interesting that his movement in the ring echo's postures and movements from karate. Its obviously not the stiff, frozen postures that karate often suggests. Far more fluid and yet its there in a lot of his movement. I wonder how much his training for the ring was karate based, but it is there to see.

Going back to the original clip of Iains, nothing jumps out as being karate-like apart from the long stance. Not a surprise perhaps, and I guess how we train 'appears' through our movement in combat. Those old boxers were not karate-ka, Lyoto was.

Regards,

Stu.