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Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture
You are not a black belt! You know it! And we all know it too!

Six years ago I did a podcast on the grading system and what it means to be a black belt:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/black-belt-and-grading-system

Essentially, I argued that grades are internal markers only and that you can’t compare grades across groups. While some want to see a uniform standard across karate, I argued against that because it would be limiting, will invariably be misused as a form of control, and will essentially ensure a race toward widespread mediocrity.

I still hold the same views today. However, one thing that I never discussed in that podcast was black belts knowingly seeking essentially meaningless grades in order to pad out their CV. I’ve seen a lot of that recently and figured it may make for an interesting discussion. I also want to vent and get this off my chest :-)

I sit on quite a few dan grading panels in any given year for various groups. I always tell the candidates that, pass or fail, I admire them for choosing the difficult path and seeking a dan grade they can be proud of. They know there are easier ways to get a dan grade, but they have chosen demanding tests against demanding criteria.

They write detailed papers, push beyond exhaustion, demonstrate deep knowledge, engage in stress-inducing live drills, and demonstrate high levels of technical competence. They would not want an easy test because that would also mean there is no sense of achievement. They want to have pride in their accomplishments; so that invariably means accomplishing something worthy of a sense of pride.

However, the antithesis of this is that I’m seeing a growing number of “karateka” happily get given a rank for little or no effort, and yet they wear it with apparent pride!

I’m not talking about those poor individuals who have only been exposed to poor quality martial arts and hence they know no better. I’m talking about people who should know better, often instructors themselves, who are happy to take meaningless grades from anyone who will award them.

It is not the fact that there are poor quality black belts out there that is the issue for me. That’s always been the case and it a price worth paying to avoid enforced mediocrity.  What worries me is that in many cases everyone involved knows the dan grade issued is meaningless. It’s not just the “McDojos” either; in some cases it is once respected groups and individuals doing this.

The person issuing it knows it is a “give away” (which tells the world about the dubious internal standards they adhere too). And the person being awarded the grade also knows it is meaningless; but they seem totally happy to present it to the world as if it means something. There’s a shamelessness in this that is galling to say the least.

I know many an individual who started again from scratch with a new group when they realised their current grade meant very little. There’s an honour and honestly in that which I admire. Conversely, I can’t see anything good in people knowingly seeking a meaningless accolade.

In the podcast I did six years ago, I did not consider the possibility that people, who do know better, would still seek meaningless grades and then present them as an accomplishment. I never considered, perhaps naively, that people would have so little self-respect or self-awareness that they could knowingly present a worthless unearned rank to the world as if it was something to be proud of. Especially when there are huge numbers of dan grades, who did legitimately earn their rank, who can see right through them.

To me, these pretenders are akin to what the British Army refer to as “Walts” i.e. Walter Mitty types who falsely claim military rank and accomplishments for personal vanity and to gain acclaim from the unknowing … and, inevitably, derision and mockery from those who truly have those experiences and accolades.

Here is a list of things that I feel make very clear to everyone that a grade means nothing and is not something to be proud of:

* If you become an instant black belt in any way.

* If you didn’t go through the kyu grades to get there.

* If you were awarded a grade in an art you don’t practise due to your achievements in an art you do practice. For example, you legitimately have a rank in TKD and you got awarded a rank in karate in “recognition” of that, or vice-versa.

* If have a 3rd dan in “Style X karate” and someone says that worth an automatic 1st dan “Style Y karate” with no testing or time on the dojo floor needed.

* If you got awarded the rank due to your attendance at a few seminars or similar.

* If you got an increase in rank solely for joining an association / group.

* You “fast tracked” to a dan grade because of your participation in an “instructor program” or similar (essentially a form of pyramid selling).

* Your increase in rank was solely associated with your willingness to take on an administrative role i.e. because you run a training group, teach classes under the banner of the group, are an area representative, etc.

And so on.

In short, if you did not work for it, then it is meaningless! And you know that! And you should know others know that too. You may choose to turn a convenient blind eye to it within the group, but it’s very obviously to all outside the group that “dan grade doggy treats” are not meaningful: “Good boy! Good Boy! Have a dan grade you clever, clever boy!

I think what surprises me is that people would be so brazen as to present to the martial arts world a rank that they know is meaningless, and all legitimate martial artists also know is meaningless. There’s no pride in a worthless achievement. However, I’m shocked there is so little shame from some folks.

The bottom line is that if a rank did not take years of blood, sweat and tears to attain then it’s not worth anything.

It is worth zero, zilch, zip, nada, nothing! And presenting it as if it is legitimate is both laughable and pitiable. People who do this should know that it only brings the admiration of fellow false dan grades; and the pity and derision of legitimate ones.

If you got any form of “fast track” or instant dan grade, then you’re not a dan grade! FULL STOP. And you know it. So have some self-respect and stop embarrassing yourself by claiming you are.

Any decent martial artist should want nothing to do with any group that awards “instant dan grades”. Join a group with standards who will demand you work hard over an extended period to get your grade (there are lots of them). Then, and only then, can you have pride in any rank you get.

All the best,

Iain

Marcus_1
Marcus_1's picture

Very well said Iain. I hate these places that make all these promises about achieving Dan grages within 6 - 18 months etc. 

When I was looking for a new club as my old one had stopped, I came across a guy running what he described as "A mix of Karate, Kung Fu and Kickboxing" (basically something the "chief instructor" had made up). Anyway, I attended a lesson, spoke to the guy who told me that because I held a black belt in Shotokan, he'd be looking to set me up as an instructor within a few months! I hadn't even mentioned any aims to be an instructor of any kind at that time and was more than happy to start again from white belt!

I've seen clubs with 8/9 year old black belts, clubs with teenagers taking parts of sessions...it amazes me how people get away with it.

I am pleased I now train where I do, yes I have started again at white belt as the style is slightly different and I am gradually learning those differences in preperation for my 1st grading. What is great is that as it's a relatively new dojo, everyone is white belt. A lot of us have migrated from different styles but all have started with the same attitude (in the adult class anyway). My son has attended the kids class a few times (he is 5), he now leaves school on a Monday and Friday asking if he is going to Karate, he is so eager to learn and it's adorable, while there, he is attentive, puts in tonnes of effort and enjoys it. 

Last night I was asked to sit in on the junior class as Sensei needed another adult to fulfill the adult to child ratio, as I was there, beign DBS checked already, I agreed although, wearing my white belt felt odd being in that environment. However, I was able to chip in on some 1-1 work with the kids, drawing on my 20 plus years experience in Shotokan to explain some stuff to the kids, I felt great, but in no way am I looking to "jump grades", I just want to help both my Sensei and in doing so, help the kids improve their karate.

Barry O'Sullivan
Barry O'Sullivan's picture

Well said Iain and Marcus. The saying "All the gear and no idea" springs to mind. I felt the same way when I was in the Army and saw people walking around with the same medals as me but I knew for a fact they had not earnt them. You can can get a medal for doing a month or more in Iraq/Afghanistan etc and even then that month could of been spent doing next to nothing whereas lads like myself and many others spent 6 months or so at these places and and went through hell and get the exact same medal. Frustrating to say the least. From a martial arts perspective though I've found I can tell the fakes from the real deal when I see them in action!

All the best to all

Barry O

mbodie
mbodie's picture

I've often said that one of the things I love about martial arts is the sheer honesty of it. You can tell me all about your ranks, lineage, and who you've trained with. Yet the moment we cross hands, I immediately know if you're skilled or not. There's simply no faking it.

Creidiki
Creidiki's picture

I hate belt-grades with a heat of thousand suns, they serve only two useful purposes.

1) They allow instructor to easily and quickly form students into sub-groups of relative experience and skill level

2) They offer specific goal to motivate personal training

Problem is that

1) There is little advantage in sorting students beyond beginner/advanced so essentially we need two belts white and black.

2) Belt grade are really sh***y way to motivate people to train martial arts. If vision of yourself in black belt is the only thing that gets you to class then you'll quit 5 minutes after you got it, I've seen it happen.

Of course then you have grades given because of politics, favoritism, money etc. It also gives an illusion of standardisation, one black belt is as good as another and 2. dan is allways better than 1.st kyu. Overall belt systems cons outweight the pros by a metric ton. But hey, can't change it because its "traditional "wink

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Creidiki wrote:
I hate belt-grades with a heat of thousand suns, they serve only two useful purposes …

… Overall belt systems cons outweight the pros by a metric ton. But hey, can't change it because its "traditional”

I’m totally OK with the grading system. To me, it’s just like in academia in that it structures training into sections; and you can’t move onto the next sections until you have demonstrated competence. You can’t do a degree until you’ve passed your A-Levels, and you can’t do your A-Levels until you’ve passed your GCSEs. The “learn, pass test, move on” system used in education the world over. I think martial arts are wise to emulate something with a good track record.

The addition of coloured belts makes it easy for everyone in the room (fellow students and instructors) to know who is working on what, and who has passed a test to demonstrate competence in what.

The belts are a by-product of progressing in a structured training program. I feel a good instructor should be able to make that the culture of the dojo. If the belt is the goal and not the by-product, then there is something wrong with the culture of the dojo. I don’t think that’s a reflection on the belt system itself though, which can be useful when done right.

I had a friend who decided he was going to dump the grading system. Within twelve months he reinstated it again. When I asked why, he said that the lack of rank testing was making people complacent because everyone knew there was no competency test (i.e. “I’ve done that one, teach me something new”). He also said egos were running riot as everyone wanted to prove they were “top dog”. The grading system provided an organised hierarchy and as a result a more productive and cohesive group dynamic.

I know not every art uses ranks, but I find in very useful in structuring training and developing skilled students.

It’s when the system is knowingly misused that we have problems. I see no inherent problems with the grading system though because many groups make good use of it (as per original post).

Barry O'Sullivan wrote:
From a martial arts perspective though I've found I can tell the fakes from the real deal when I see them in action!

mbodie wrote:
I've often said that one of the things I love about martial arts is the sheer honesty of it. You can tell me all about your ranks, lineage, and who you've trained with. Yet the moment we cross hands, I immediately know if you're skilled or not. There's simply no faking it.

Very true. As I mentioned in the above post, people should be aware that illegitimate dan grades are readily apparent as such.

All the best,

Iain

JWT
JWT's picture

An interesting (and obviously heartfelt) piece Iain.  

I don't think that many people will disagree that what should be more important than rank (from the perspective of the student) is what a teacher knows and what they can teach them. I think the issue with rank is that short of having any other quality marker, outsiders (and often insiders) are left to asume that the higher the rank the better the instructor. If reputable instructors see less credible or experienced people buying rank and seemingly gaining more students as a result, the commercial pressure to accept grades will be high.  

We all know standards do vary considerably. I have sat on more than a few different grading panels. I've never agreed to the award of a Dan grade that I didn't feel was merited at the time, but I have over the years met healthy and fit people with 1st, 2nd or 3rd Dan ranks who quite frankly I would struggle to grade above 7th Kyu due to the quality of their basics. I have awarded grades where in retrospect I can see I was taken in by technique performance (like a learned dance routine) rather than an ingrained understanding of the principles. As a result I've hardened my own assessment procedures. I can only asume that it is the pressure of retention and the need for big associations to entice new students by showing off large numbers of Dan grades that has resulted in 'poor' black belts passing the grade. At the same time I've met and trained with incredible Dan grades who hold no high rank and who can't be bothered to grade for it because that number means nothing to them. By the same token if the timescales between grades are adhered to, how 'physical' a grading do we expect of people in their 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s going for grades of 5th Dan or above? Should an older person going for a lower Dan grade be expected to put in the same effort but not necessarily meet the same demands?  

I don't agree with every item on Iain's list, but I do agree that every grade should be earned through time, effort and study, and I do understand the frustration of people seeing so many grades - especially if they are 'high grades' floating around. The problem with 'you know it, I know it' is that lots of people wearing black belts do not know any better, and within the rules of their groups they are black belts - they don't know what other people in other groups have gone through to reach the same stage.   

John

Andrzej J
Andrzej J's picture

I do like having a grading system, for the same reasons that Iain gives and the same reason I like the "traditional" Japanese system of training in lines ordered by grade: because it's impossible for an instructor to pay attention to every student all the time, and if a student wants to see how a technique they're trying to practise should be done, they know where to look in the lines (at the higher grades in front and to the right, in our system), and they know who to ask if they can't ask Sensei.

I feel fortunate to have come up through a system with a very detailed, structured syllabus and a tough, honest grading system. The higher-rank gradings (brown belt and above) were always an ordeal, so you knew that if you got a grade, you'd earned it. Of course, these days, there are things that I wish were included in that syllabus which haven't been up to now (that's why I'm here ...). But I still feel that anyone who's been awarded a black belt in our system deserves it.

I have no qualms about wearing a white belt or civvies to train in another style or system. My black belt means something to me personally, and it means something within the context of our affiliated dojos - it means that anyone who ranks below me can ask me about anything they need to learn for a grading up to my level and I'll explain it. Other than that ... not a lot else. My blood's as red as anybody else's.

harlan
harlan's picture

Mr. Abernethy,

While I understand your view, how do you deal with the 'honorific' aspect of dan grades? What I mean, is that at some point, no matter the style, the knowledge and experience starts to outweigh the physical ability. I am specifically asking about the awarding of high dan grades to senior sensei - especially if from another system.

Thank you.

Tau
Tau's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
I’m totally OK with the grading system. To me, it’s just like in academia in that it structures training into sections; and you can’t move onto the next sections until you have demonstrated competence. You can’t do a degree until you’ve passed your A-Levels, and you can’t do your A-Levels until you’ve passed your GCSEs. The “learn, pass test, move on” system used in education the world over. I think martial arts are wise to emulate something with a good track record.

[devil's advocate]

I don't have a GCSE in IT, yet I progressed from GCSEs to a National Diploma in Computer Studies and then from there a Bachelor's degree in Nursing (all completely true.) I could use this Bachelor's degree to enroll onto a Master's course in a related subject, and then to a PhD in another. I know people who have done this (also true.)

Given related or cross-over skills, why can't I take my 1st Kyu in Tom's Karate and grade to 1st Dan in Dick's Karate and then 2nd Dan in Harry's Karate? Furthermore it is possible to go from Bachelor's straight to PhD, missing out Master's. Typically this requires meeting certainly strict academic criteria over and above what the average student will meet. So if I'm exceptional, why can't I grade from 2nd Dan in Harry's Karate to 4th Dan in Ken's Karate? What about grading from 1st Dan in Bob's Wado Ryu to 1st or 2nd Dan in Todd's Shotokan Karate?

[/devil's advocate]

Grades and the grading structure. Love it and hate it. So much merit to the system, yet abused so much.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

harlan wrote:
While I understand your view, how do you deal with the 'honorific' aspect of dan grades? What I mean, is that at some point, no matter the style, the knowledge and experience starts to outweigh the physical ability.

An honorific grade – i.e. one awarded to an elderly person who has made huge contribution to the art and has an unquestionable degree of knowledge and experience – is totally legitimate in my view. They earned it. No one would doubt their knowledge and experience. Such a grade has been earned with blood, sweat and tears over a long period of time.

What I’m talking about above is entirely different. It’s the awarding and acceptance of rank that are clearly worthless being presented as worthwhile achievements. I certainly have no issue with any form of legitimate ranking. They key is that, to be legitimate, it needs to have been worked for and studied for over long periods of time.

I hope that helps clarify.

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

[devil's advocate]

Taking again the academic analogy and then the issue of honourary grades. Universities may (and do) award honourary degrees although I confess to not knowing on what basic. What about honourary dan grades?

It is my understanding that this isn't uncommon in Japan. For example a poltician who campaigns on behalf of the martial arts, e.g. for Olympic inclusion, may be awarded an honourary dan grade even though they've never stepped on the tatami.

[/devil's advocate]

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Tau wrote:
I don't have a GCSE in IT, yet I progressed from GCSEs to a National Diploma in Computer Studies and then from there a Bachelor's degree in Nursing (all completely true.) I could use this Bachelor's degree to enroll onto a Master's course in a related subject, and then to a PhD in another. I know people who have done this (also true.)

You’ve missed the point in running with the analogy there Peter. I was talking about the ranking structure WITHIN a given group when using that analogy. In any given field there is an order to learning things, and you have to demonstrate competence in one thing before moving on to the other. That was the specific point I was making in the second post; which is entirely separate from the points in the original post.

Tau wrote:
Given related or cross-over skills, why can't I take my 1st Kyu in Tom's Karate and grade to 1st Dan in Dick's Karate and then 2nd Dan in Harry's Karate?

Because they will all have differing standards, methods and nuances. You simply can’t do that because the cross over is generally very small (when we are talking about testing against a specific criteria). What is suggested is that a 1st kyu in Goju is an automatic 1st kyu in Shotokan and therfore could lead to a 1st dan in Shotokan; and a 1st dan in Shotokan is an automatic 1st dan in Kyokushin and could therefore lead to a 2nd dan Kyokushin. It just does not work that way (as any practitioner of any of those three styles will attest). It’s even difficult within styles because all groups have different standards, different drills, and on and on.

Joining a new group, learning what they do, training hard over an extended period, and legitimately grading is one thing. An automatic, “you’re a 1st dan with them, so you’re instantly a 1st dan with us” is exactly the kind of “instant dan grade” that I don’t believe any reputable group would entertain.

For example, a strong Shotokan based 1st dan, if they were ethical, would not accept an instant grade in Goju. They remain a good karateka, but they know Goju is different. If they want a grade in Goju, they will train and work for it. Their prior training will help, but they will still earn it. Nothing automatic and free. If they did accept a freebie based on their Shotokan, then they, and the rest of the martial world, would know it’s not a real dan grade in Goju. It would be a joke that they should know will lead to derision and ridicule from legitimate Goju dan grades.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Tau wrote:
It is my understanding that this isn't uncommon in Japan. For example a poltician who campaigns on behalf of the martial arts, e.g. for Olympic inclusion, may be awarded an honourary dan grade even though they've never stepped on the tatami.

True, but they would never be so brazen as to present it as a legitimate dan grade.To do so would be dishonest, disrespectful to the people who awarded it, and would be widely derided by legitimate dan grades.

That’s what I’m saying in the first post. People should not present themselves as having achieved something when they have not. It makes them a laughing stock.

All the best,

Iain

MichaelB
MichaelB's picture

I agree with Iain's premise and his structured approach when applying a syllabus to each level of kyu grade grade through to blackbelt. What I would say to a student who is my responsibility, is essentially the same as Iain's detailed list, although condensed into a couple of sentences.

Before a student is eligible for a high level grading, they must be able to convince me they can demonstrate some skills and resilience, should they ever be involved in a street situation. The response to which, might be a matter of running away, or if there is no other option, having to take the initiative.

As karate is a civilian self-defence system, an instructor who hands out a dan grade to a student who cannot jump through this particular hoop, is being irresponsible. A below par student handed a dan grade will have an optimistic or misguided belief of their self defence skills and put themselves in real danger should they encounter a potential altercation.

This is a problem in many organisations - evidenced by much of the stuff on YouTube.

Mark F
Mark F's picture

I love this topic! I love it because Iain is having a proper vent :-) and because the subject matter has never touched me directly. BUT, it’s a topic that is always discussed when karate folk mix at seminars and such like “did you see the technique of so and so, they wouldn’t even be a purple belt in our club”

I’m a relatively newbie to the karate scene so not influenced by legacy ideas or politics. I started in my 40’s and graded to shodan-ho earlier this year after nearly 6 years of sweat, little bit of blood, lots of tears (from laughter, I train with great people) and a few broken bones. I know what I went through for my belt and I know the standards set by our club.  What does a black belt mean to me? Everything and nothing. I’m not chasing grades but I’m still proud of what I have achieved so far. I can’t judge others outside our club as I don’t know what standards they are working to. 

When I stood in line 6’ish years ago did I care about the qualifications of my instructor?  Honestly? No I didn’t. I had sat there watching my son train and one morning decided to get in line and train as well rather than be a spectator. Was I being naïve in not checking the qualifications of my instructor? Maybe, but I wouldn’t have stayed long if the instructor had not been good at what he does and I liked the guy! (still do in case he reads this :-))

These days with the prominence of the internet the “fakes” are easily identifiable. I can see from a person’s video clips if I can learn from them or equally, to my mind, they have nothing to offer me. I don’t check their dan status first or what certificates they have. I just press next. Therefore they don’t affect me, I may have a giggle from time to time but other than that I just move on. If I think about attending a seminar I google the person, see what they offer and make my decision. I never checked your qualifications, Iain, before I went to one of your seminars but I did see what your work was all about online beforehand. Would it have made any difference to me if you were a 4th, 5th or 6th dan, not a jot. My point is in my eyes your qualifications are not undermined by pretenders. They are just that, pretenders, and they exist everywhere, not just in karate.  

So I guess my question is not what harm are these people doing to karate but how is what they are doing having an impact on the great work you and your like are doing to publicise the karate we see on this website and the other similar forums? 

All the best,

Mark

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

MichaelB wrote:
As karate is a civilian self-defence system, an instructor who hands out a dan grade to a student who cannot jump through this particular hoop, is being irresponsible. A below par student handed a dan grade will have an optimistic or misguided belief of their self defence skills and put themselves in real danger should they encounter a potential altercation.

This is a problem in many organisations - evidenced by much of the stuff on YouTube.

That’s a good post Michael and the above is a very valid point. However, what I was primarily talking about in my original post was people who accept “instant dan grades” in the full knowledge they are given, not in recognition of achieving a given standard after time spent training, but as means to grow a group and to reward behaviour. They know the grade is meaningless, the person awarding the grade knows it is meaningless, and yet they present themselves as having achieved something worthwhile.

I’ve seen a dozen or so such incidents over the last few months and I find it genuinely appalling. The idea you can become an instantly knowledgeable is BS … and hence the only thing you can get an instant dan grade in is BS. Those who therefore present such grades on their CV must know that we all know it’s BS too.

It is truly Walter Mitty type behaviour, and an insult to those who have chosen the honest path that such fakers present themselves as their equal.

As I say, these are not people who don’t know better. They do know that their dan grade was “instant” (just add BS? :-)) and yet they have the gall to present themselves as instructors and the equals of those who have studied and trained for years to earn their rank.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark F wrote:
So I guess my question is not what harm are these people doing to karate, but how is what they are doing having an impact on the great work you and your like are doing to publicise the karate we see on this website and the other similar forums?

I think the problem arises when the general public chooses an instructor. To them, one karate dan grade looks pretty much like any other.  Of course we know, as people in the field, that guy who got his dan grades after many years of training is infinitely more knowledgeable than the guy who got his as freebie from someone looking to expand their empire.

That’s why I think we need to push and publicise this issue. Potential students should ask the following:

A - When did you start training in this system?

B - How long did you train in this dedicated system before you were a dan grade / instructor?

C - What did you have to do to get the rank?

If the answers are something like: “10 years ago, for a full decade, and a series of gradings during that time” then they are a valid black belt.

If the answers are something like, “12 months ago, on three seminars, it was just given to me” then they are a Walter Mitty black belt and students should want nothing to do with them or any group / individual who issues such grades.

You’re a good example of a true dan grade. I know because I sat on your last dan grading panel. As you know, you were really tested technically, physically and mentally. You had to do loads of kata, loads of realistic bunkai and drills, loads of pad work, loads on live fighting, and so on. People were throwing up in to litter bins during that grading! You and your fellow dan grades can therefore wear your grades with pride. You know, I know, and everyone else knows you earned those grades and then some.

Now when someone becomes an “instant dan grade”, and they are shameless enough to present themselves as your equal, then I think that’s an insult. It really is akin to the “Walts” who claim military service and accomplishments without ever having served. It’s knowingly dishonest and arrogant. It’s also an insult to those who have truly achieved something worthwhile. 

The amount of that I’ve seen recently has really got under my skin. I see what those like you do to wear a dan grade, and then I see “Walts” proclaiming their “achievements” as being akin to yours and I’m appalled. It’s a direct insult to those who have worked hard and truly achieved something.

That’s why I wrote the initial post. I want the “Walts” to know that we see them for what they are. They are not black belts – they know it and we know it – and in claiming they are then they shame themselves.

They want unearned pride and status, but they should know what they have actually presented to the world is shameful and demeaning. We all see right through their BS and hence it achieves the exact opposite of what they intend.

You’re right that, in the grand scheme of things, karate will prosper and they are not of pivotal concern. However, shining a light on cockroaches tends to result in them scurrying back into the shadows. We all see these “instant dan grades” for what they are.

Mark F wrote:
I love it because Iain is having a proper vent :-)

Indeed I am. Feels good to “scratch an itch” that has recently been bothering me with increasing intensity :-)

All the best,

Iain

JWT
JWT's picture

I've not personally seen much of the honorific 'other art grade' awarding in the UK whereas I've seen it quite a bit amongst reputable instructors in the USA. Is it as common here in the UK or do I just move in the wrong circles?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

JWT wrote:
I've not personally seen much of the honorific 'other art grade' awarding in the UK whereas I've seen it quite a bit amongst reputable instructors in the USA. Is it as common here in the UK or do I just move in the wrong circles?

All the recent examples I’ve been exposed to are in the UK; although in a few cases the award is from international groups.

These aren’t “honorific” though. They are presented as legitimate dan grades even though the recipient has done little to earn them.

I’ve seen both disproportionate increases in rank and the awarding of an instant black belt in a system previously unstudied. In both instances, this is normally for political purposes and empire building.  

All the best,

Iain

JWT
JWT's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
All the recent examples I’ve been exposed to are in the UK; although in a few cases the award is from international groups.

These aren’t “honorific” though. They are presented as legitimate dan grades even though the recipient has done little to earn them.

I’ve seen both disproportionate increases in rank and the awarding of an instant black belt in a system previously unstudied. In both instances, this is normally for political purposes and empire building.

The only example I can think of from memory was at least 20 years ago when a 2nd Dan (and I don't know how many years they had been a Dan grade) was promoted straight to 6th Dan by a senior Japanese Sensei so that the individual could take over the running of an organisation. This was not in Karate. But so far as I'm aware that use of Dan grades as managerial ranks rather than training/experience/knowledge ranks is more how they are viewed in Japan?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

There are quite a few in the periphery of our circles John. You’ve invariably been lucky that they’ve not came to your attention. Do you remember the i-SPY books? We should make one for the martial arts: “The i-SPY book of BS TMA”? ;-)

All the best,

Iain

JWT
JWT's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
There are quite a few in the periphery of our circles John. You’ve invariably been lucky that they’ve not came to your attention. Do you remember the i-SPY books? We should make one for the martial arts: “The i-SPY book of BS TMA”? ;-)

I can remember the game, don't think I ever saw the books. :) I think there is an interesting individual who has a big group near me that was recently shown demonstrating simply terrible self defence stuff in the Daily Mail. Now that I think on it he has more different black belts and ranks than age would make probable, and seems to regard some bodyguarding relationship with a now deceased Pop Star as a significant credential. I'm intending to hang in my dojo a seminar rank I bought that I think can be purchased without any training. It's a White belt in Ameridote. 

Tau
Tau's picture

John, I don't know whether you caught it. I recently posted on Facebook that I'd received two dan grade certificates in the post from someone in Germany who I'd never heard of. On this forum I won't name names but I'll gladly PM anyone scans of the certificates. I was "awarded," if I recall a 5th Dan / Shihan in one system and a 6th Dan Shihan-Dai in another. The person sending them asked to join my organisation (I don't have an organisation, just some clubs) and I suspect was seeking promotion in grade from me. Needless to say I never replied. The Facebook thread showed that I certainly wasn't the first to receive grades from him. I advised to bin them. I kept them to show to my students for humour so they're in a pile of paperwork somewhere.

JWT
JWT's picture

Tau wrote:

John, I don't know whether you caught it. I recently posted on Facebook that I'd received two dan grade certificates in the post from someone in Germany who I'd never heard of. On this forum I won't name names but I'll gladly PM anyone scans of the certificates. I was "awarded," if I recall a 5th Dan / Shihan in one system and a 6th Dan Shihan-Dai in another. The person sending them asked to join my organisation (I don't have an organisation, just some clubs) and I suspect was seeking promotion in grade from me. Needless to say I never replied. The Facebook thread showed that I certainly wasn't the first to receive grades from him. I advised to bin them. I kept them to show to my students for humour so they're in a pile of paperwork somewhere.

Must have missed it. :) 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

JWT wrote:
I'm intending to hang in my dojo a seminar rank I bought that I think can be purchased without any training. It's a White belt in Ameridote.

Thanks to Peter’s generosity, I also have one of those :-)

Tau wrote:
I recently posted on Facebook that I'd received two dan grade certificates in the post from someone in Germany who I'd never heard of. On this forum I won't name names but I'll gladly PM anyone scans of the certificates. I was "awarded," if I recall a 5th Dan / Shihan in one system and a 6th Dan Shihan-Dai in another. The person sending them asked to join my organisation (I don't have an organisation, just some clubs) and I suspect was seeking promotion in grade from me. Needless to say I never replied.

I’ve had that happen too. A guy (not from Germany in this case) looking to join the WCA offered me a high dan grade “in recognition of your contribution to the martial arts”. He had a long list of very suspicious dan grades himself and my guess was he was looking for a case of “I’ll grade you and you grade me”. I forcefully declined the “rank” and both Peter and I bluntly told him the WCA was not the group for him.

Worth mentioning that this practise is not just solely in the hands of out and out charlatans. I have recently seen people – whose personal skill and martial knowledge is beyond question – give out “instant dan grades” to further their political agenda and grow their personal empire.

All the best,

Iain

Kevin73
Kevin73's picture

Forgot to mention the infamous "airplane promotions".  You hop on the plane and go to America/UK and while in transit over the ocean  you go from 1st or 2nd Dan up to 5th Dan or higher.

T Wall
T Wall's picture

Not to take this in too different a direction but, what really chaps me is the laundry list of instructors claimed by those that only attend seminars.  Attending a seminar or two and taking a hour class from a given instructor does not, in my book, equate to being that instructors student.  I think this falls in line with receiving a grade of any type based soley upon attendance at a seminar (an actual grading not withstanding). 

I am in agreement with Iain regarding his list of what constitutes a handout for Dan grades as well.  I'm drawn to wonder if this is just a product beginning to become more widely abused due to the growth of martial arts as a whole?  I have seen the quid pro quo ranks done for quite some time now and try to avoid associating with those types as much as possible.  For all the lip service regarding honesty and integrity they sure give a poor demonstration of such. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

T Wall wrote:
Not to take this in too different a direction but, what really chaps me is the laundry list of instructors claimed by those that only attend seminars. Attending a seminar or two and taking a hour class from a given instructor does not, in my book, equate to being that instructors student.

I’m totally with you there. To be a student of someone takes a long term commitment. I’ve been to lots of seminars, but I don’t regard those seminar teachers as my “instructors”. An inspiration, or a positive influence, but never an “instructor”. That title is reserved for those who have given me continual instruction over many years.

I certainly have people I regard as students who initially came into contact with me though the seminars … but who, crucially, I have had a long term relationship with after that.

I don’t regard everyone who has ever attended seminar or two as a student! And most folks who have attended a couple of seminars would not regard me as one of their “teachers” either. It would be unethical and inaccurate to state otherwise. However, it is worse, in my view, when seminar teachers knowingly recognise people as students and give grades on the back of that (little or no testing required).

Put it this way, if people are fully fledged students after a couple of seminars, and black belts not long after that, then we are guaranteed to find a p##s poor system, a highly questionable ranking structure, or knowingly unethical behaviour … sometimes all three.

In a similar vein, a weird thing I’ve had is people I’ve never met claiming to have taught me too. In some cases, claiming to have taught me everything I now do … even though we’ve never actually met or even spoken! It’s a bit of a slight to those people who actually did spend all those years working with me (who truly deserve the blame / credit). Although, I guess it’s a backhanded compliment that they see me as as being worthy of falsely claiming :-)

My students are my students, and my teachers are my teachers. That’s how it should work.

T Wall wrote:
I have seen the quid pro quo ranks done for quite some time now and try to avoid associating with those types as much as possible.  For all the lip service regarding honesty and integrity they sure give a poor demonstration of such.

“Karate aims to build character, improve human behaviour, and cultivate modesty; it does not, however, guarantee it.” – Yasuhiro Konishi

All the best,

Iain

Ian H
Ian H's picture

Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical  aquatic ceremony! You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!!

Ditto black belts.

MichaelB wrote:
As karate is a civilian self-defence system, an instructor who hands out a dan grade to a student who cannot jump through this particular hoop, is being irresponsible. A below par student handed a dan grade will have an optimistic or misguided belief of their self defence skills and put themselves in real danger should they encounter a potential altercation.

While I can personally appreciate your desire to incorporate "civilian self defence" standards into your dojo's grading criteria, and think karate would be better off if more dojos did that as well, I think you might be blending two different issues together.  As Iain has said before, belt ranks are primarily for "internal" purposes of designating differences of ability within a given dojo or school, rather than being universally applicable.  So, some karate dojos may focus on the sport aspect instead of the self defence, or the "do" aspect of self-improvement, and have a different approach to self-defence abilities.  

Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture

hi I  agree i think all grades are worthless, nothing to brag about.

BJA Judo will not let people grade if they do not have the money to pay the licence fee. If you buy a recreational one, they that's is it you cannot grade. Also, you cannot grade if you do not do competitions, the fact you will not do competitions means you will never improve and thus do not merit the grade by winning fights at them.

I totally disagree with that, to me, it is just a money-spinning scam. BJC Judo do that same thing. totally wrong in my view, they are trying to rectify it but if you do not join the cult, your a heretic. It is same with karate clubs as well. 

5 -6-years judo = final grade 2nd kyu,  started again at ungraded. I have been a white belt for 14 months 

2 years Shotokan - green belt

3 years  shotokia karate purple, i started again, if i went to another club i would start ungraded

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