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Dash3
Dash3's picture
Resources on karate throws

I recently taught part one of a two part seminar on Funakoshi's throws - part two is scheduled for April. The response to part one was so enthusiastic that I have been asked to teach throws on a monthly basis.

For a while, I'll be able to do so purely on variations on Funakoshi's throws, then a couple of throws that are clearly implied by the kata, like hip toss and cross-buttocks. I am looking for resources on karate throws. I already have Iain's book naturally. I need to be able to link the throws to Shotokan kata or Funakoshi's writing to satisfy some more "recent traditionalist (3K)" elements in the dojo leadership..

Thanks in advance!

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Dash3,

you could take a look at the 48 self-defense diagrams of the Bubishi. Since Funakoshi used several parts of the Bubishi in his writings you can argue that he was familiar with them. The connection to the Kata is a little work you have to do on your own though.

Are you teaching just the 9 throws Funakoshi demonstrated in  Karate Do Kyohan? If so you miss out two other throws he describes in his earlier writings. Don't be confused because he changed the names of the throws from 1922 to 1925 to 1936 several times. But once you get a hold of that you have 11 throws presented by Funakoshi himself.

You could also take a look at some of the throws of Judo. Tai Otoshi is a prominent example you can find in Bassai Dai.

Regards Holger

Dash3
Dash3's picture

The two part seminar is the 9 Kyohan throws plus nodo osae. I don't consider ude daoshi and bikko daishi (from Renten) to be significantly distinguishable to get their own listing (just variations of the aforementioned 10). And the name change thing is a topic already covered in part one that I've already taught and will come up again in part two.

But I will look into the tai otoshi as application of Bassai. Thanks! Judo throws are great as long as I can tie them to kata - otherwise, I'll be accused of heresy..,

Dash3
Dash3's picture

(I've looked into Tai Otoshi and the suggestion of it as an application for the end of Bassai is dead on brilliant and exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!)

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Dash3 

I take throws from wrestling, and they fit in to the karate. Also look on every technique how it could be applied as a throw. For example yoko geri from bassai dai, can be utilised as a throw. If we look on other moves from Bassai,they can be used as a throw. To give you an Idea please have look on the videos below.

Only problem I can see is, if you dont know how to throw (new ones), I would not teach new throw without sufficient training.

Kind regards 

Les

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Dash3 wrote:
I am looking for resources on karate throws ... I need to be able to link the throws to Shotokan kata or Funakoshi's writing to satisfy some more "recent traditionalist (3K)" elements in the dojo leadership.

I’ve put quite a bit of information on karate throws on my YouTube channel (and the more in app). There’s a lot more than these one, but hopefully they provide a decent start and overview.

BASIC GRIPPING

For all throws you need to get the right grip first, so the basic gripping in this video is where I’d start.

INDIVIDUAL FUNAKOSHI THROWS

Here is some stuff on Funakoshi’s throws.

Tani-Otoshi

Katawa-Guruma Throw

Tsubame Gaeshi

Kubi-Wa

Nodo-Osae

GENERAL THROWS

Here is a couple of videos on throwing generally

 

THROWS ON THE PADS

As karateka, we want to integrate the throwing with the striking; so drills such as the ones below help.

 

 

 

GROUND FIGHTING FOLLOW UPS

You also want to practise following up from throws for the fighting and historical interest sides of things.

 

 

 

NATURE OF KARATE THROWS

This video talks about the nature of karate throwing (when contrasted with sport Judo) and may be useful for defining the nature of limitations of throwing within karate

I hope that helps.

All the best,

Iain

PS The standing shoulder wheel throw shown in the Wanshu / Enpi video above was taught by Funakoshi; even though it’s not in any of his books. This picture taken in 1935 at Waseda University, Toyko. Funakoshi is dressed in black at the left of the photo and is overseeing both the throw (not particularly well executed) and what would appear to be some form of striking on the ground.

Tau
Tau's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

PS The standing shoulder wheel throw shown in the Wanshu / Enpi video above was taught by Funakoshi; even though it’s not in any of his books.

Last night I met up with an old friend as he as a guest instructor at a local club. Amongst other things I watched a very interesting variation of kata guruma being taught. Although not replicating the kata empi/wanshu I saw several shades of the kata in the throw. If we get chance I'll show you just for your interest / see what you make of it

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Tau wrote:
Although not replicating the kata empi/wanshu I saw several shades of the kata in the throw. If we get chance I'll show you just for your interest / see what you make of it

Sounds interesting! If you get chance to video it, and share it here, I think people would like to see it.

ky0han wrote:
Tai Otoshi is a prominent example you can find in Bassai Dai.

Indeed. Here’s one take on that end sequence.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Dash3 wrote:
I need to be able to link the throws to Shotokan kata or Funakoshi's writing to satisfy some more "recent traditionalist (3K)" elements in the dojo leadership..

These JKA throws from Kase would also fit that requirement.

Not all of them strike me as that practical, but they are all very well executed. We can see a few variations on the shoulder wheel in here too.

There’s this one from Enoeda too:

All the best,

Iain

Dash3
Dash3's picture

Enoeda Sensei's wedge throw is already on the list as a watered down variation of the reverse sledgehammer (as I'm not too keen on having people holding their training partners upside...)

Really appreciating the contributions so far. I think most of you are appreciating the bind I'm in with making sure no one can say "that's not shotokan!"

Tau
Tau's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Tau wrote:
Although not replicating the kata empi/wanshu I saw several shades of the kata in the throw. If we get chance I'll show you just for your interest / see what you make of it

Sounds interesting! If you get chance to video it, and share it here, I think people would like to see it.

Driving to work I had a flash of inspiration. I'm certain if the throw taught last night were to be performed left-handed it would not only fit the kata perfectly, but also conform to what we know of Wanshu (the person) and what the kata tells us about him. I'll endeavour to film it in class tomorrow night

Dash3
Dash3's picture

(And Iain, I've watched your videos so often I could probably give the dialogue along with you at this point. Really must get the app.)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Dash3 wrote:
Really appreciating the contributions so far. I think most of you are appreciating the bind I'm in with making sure no one can say "that's not shotokan!"

I think that’s because most of us have had similar conversations. I get that some people will have notions of “style purity” and “tradition” that can prevent critical examination of what they are doing and which can stifle improvement. That’s one of the reasons I like quoting the past masters so much. Once you can reassure people that “Funakoshi said this was the way to go” or “Mabuni said this was OK” then they are prepared to look at what follows and judge it on its merits.

Without the “past master seal of approval” then some people are less prone to judge what it is shown objectively. In this instance, a good throw, that has the potential to be an effective part of the karateka’s repertoire, will be rejected simply because of it is deemed (incorrectly) to be “not Shotokan”.

You see it the other way around too. People who was anti-karate in outlook will see something that is undeniably effective, and because they have a view that karate is ineffective, they say that while the methods shown is good, it is “not karate”. This is where the historical references can come in handy again. When you show that the method is undeniably part of karate, then they either shift their viewpoint, or just ignore the evidence and carry on as before (i.e. maintain their “tribal” non-objective view, but at least then it is 100% obvious for what it is).

I had that with one of Funakoshi’s throws where a gent insisted it was wrestling, not karate, and that I was dishonest for presenting it as being part of karate. One flash of a photograph of Funakoshi later and he begrudgingly accepted it as a legitimate karate method.

I’m sure we will get beyond this need relatively soon. I see it a hangover from the 3K days (karate practised as the three separate disciplines of Kihon, Kata and Kumite; where none of them have any real relevance to the other). Progress is not measured by combative efficiency in 3K karate, but instead by the karateka’s ability to adhere to a given an arbitrary way of moving. It does not really matter if something worked or not, what mattered was if it was done “right” (i.e. in accordance with the arbitrary dictates of the style or group).

I think it’s less prevent today, but we still have a way to go. Even we practical types introduce non-combative measures such as “historical authenticity” (can never be known for certain, and besides we are martial artists not an historical enactment society), “Okinawan-ness” (whatever that is), “being in accord with the stated viewpoint of a given exponent” (where what should really be important is if it’s in accord with your own reason; not an “appeal to authority”), and so on.

When we hit the point where all that karate cares about is demonstrable combative efficiency (which is where karate started, and it’s where things like MMA are now) then karate will be the healthiest it’s ever been. After all, the whole point of strong roots is to facilitate the growth of the plant. Dogmatic “tradition” does not preserve the roots; instead it kills them off by denying their purpose.

All the best,

Iain

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Well said, I have to say that I very rarely come across people like that. Maybe because karate I teach and practice is modern and off shoot from Kyokushin. People don't take it as real karate, whatever real mean.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

There is certainly a lot of cross-over between martial arts. I would say that there are certainly tactics and methods that are fairly universally "Okinawan karate," in that the majority of them can be found in the majority of Okinawan styles, if you know where to look, but that doesn't mean that you won't find them in other systems. It also doesn't mean you won't find things that other systems claim as their own within your study of karate. It's a hard thing for people to wrap their minds around, I think, and I've definitely been on the receiving end of the types of comments Iain describes; if it's karate, it can't be effective, and if it's effective, it can't be karate.

With regard to throws, in particular, a lot of people have a tendency to look at the throws of karate and compare them to judo or wrestling. Sometimes, the techniques are the same, and sometimes they are not, but look close enough that people mistake them for "bad judo/wrestling." That came up quite a bit with this video, in particular:

People saw that, automatically assumed it was a poorly done attempt at osoto-gari because my leg goes behind my opponent's leg, and commented as such without bothering to pay attention to the explaination. There is a significant difference between a lateral entry to take out the opponent's leg, and the way an osoto-gari is done, but people's preconceived notions of what karate is (no throws) and what kinds of throws there are prevent them from seeing the difference. And yes, they do usually follow that up with something like "that would never work against a resisting opponent," nevermind the fact that I land it more often than osoto-gari when I'm grappling :P. LIke Iain, I have found that referencing old masters will often help karateka get over the "that's not karate" knee-jerk reaction. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work as well on non-karate people.

In any case, if you're interested in more throws in a karate context, I've collected a bunch of the ones we've made videos of, here:

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I skipped the ones we didn't connect to kata, but MAN we have done a lot of videos that include throws! I had no clue we had that many of them :P

Dash3
Dash3's picture

Thanks, Noah. I was going to comb your videos next. I'd already flagged your take on kusanku having the knee lift throw...

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

An amazing post Noah! So much great stuff in there! I’ll share a link to your post via social medial today. A truly great collection.

All the best,

Iain

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Thank you, both! I really was surprised at how many throws and takedowns we've shown over the past couple of years. But, you know, karate doesn't have grappling methods in it or anything, lol :P

Marc
Marc's picture

Dash, thanks for initiating this thread.

And: Wow guys, this is an amazing collection. I had seen the videos before and bookmarked them, but this now is a nice place of reference. I'll certainly come back to this page often in the future. Thanks for sharing all your ideas so generously.

Dash3 wrote:

I recently taught part one of a two part seminar on Funakoshi's throws - part two is scheduled for April. The response to part one was so enthusiastic that I have been asked to teach throws on a monthly basis.

Cool! Good luck for your seminar series. :)

Dash3 wrote:

I need to be able to link the throws to Shotokan kata or Funakoshi's writing to satisfy some more "recent traditionalist (3K)" elements in the dojo leadership..

Been there, and I can confirm that having the quotes and pictures ready can help in taking the heat out of the discussion. Some people, however, are not open to changing their point of view.

In my experience it helps if your kata applications (here: throws and takedowns) match the Shotokan kata moves exactly. This way, when they struggle to understand or apply the technique with a partner, you can always say: "Do exactly as you do in the solo performance of the kata!"

If necessary for safety, you can show how you "pull" a technique when working with a partner and then step back from your partner and show the move "in full", explaining the concept of follow-through. The "full" move then looks exactly as in the kata, and usually people go "ouuuw!" when they realise what the follow-through would do to the opponent.

The same is true for many takedowns, where "pulling the technique" means that you slow down and lower your own body a bit to safely land your partner on the floor, while "full move" would mean that you would stand erect (as in the kata) and just let your opponent drop to the floor at full speed.

Take care,

Marc