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Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture
Opening Salutations?

I have just watched this video by Jesse Enkamp:

 

Is this information based on any known source?

To the best of my knowledge (and also according to what I learned here in the forum) we do not know the origin of the "opening salutations" and all assumptions regarding them being a salutation or respect gesture of any kind are just that - assumptions. 

If anyone knows more about this, please enlighten us.

Frazatto
Frazatto's picture

I remain skeptical.

Without sources, it could be the equivalent of a "cool handshake" that got too main stream just as well.

Heath White
Heath White's picture

I have read a number of places about the "kung fu salute" or "shaolin salute", that it is a modification of the normal Chinese salute or greeting, and that it was widely adopted by martial artists who were resisting the Qing and hoped to restore the Ming.  It seems to be common knowledge in the Chinese TMA community.  You will certainly see it in plenty of kung fu films set in southern China during the Qing dynasty. (All the "Once Upon a Time in China" films with Jet Li, for example.)  If you google either of those phrases, and maybe add "Ming dynasty", you will find plenty of sources.  How high-quality they are I cannot say.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi All,

Nimrod Nir wrote:
Is this information based on any known source?

None. We do know such a hand gesture was used as a greeting, but to then claim that we have the same greeting in kata, and that is the confirmed origin of the hand position, is highly questionable. It’s an old claim, but one with no credibility in my view. This is one of those “hear hoofbeats and think unicorns” things for me.

To grip the throat effectively, you need to locate it. One hand on the back of the neck as location / control, and the other closing to squeeze the throat, will look exactly like that hand position (see image). It’s exactly what you’d expect to see in a martial arts form. I hear hoofbeats, I think horses.

Even taken on its own merits, I feel it fails at the first hurdle as a supposed “secret greeting”. It’s hardly a secret gesture as it’s very public and very obvious. It’s about as subtle as the “secret masonic greetings” in the old Monty Python sketch: https://youtu.be/oqxZ3H5nAy0

If we consider it as a more overt greeting, then we have to ask why would anyone put a greeting at the start of a martial arts form? As a westerner, it would be like me waving before proceeding to show combative methods.

To my knowledge, there is no historical documentation linking the kata that begin with that gesture (Jion, Jitte, Ji’in, etc) to such an historical militia. Indeed, the more common “origin story” – which is also questionable – is to link these kata to the Ci'en temples, based largely on the kanji Funakoshi superimposed onto those kata to give them new Japanese names because the original meaning of the names had been lost (they had been passed on through numerous languages and dialects and were sounded out in katakana when written down). Worth noting that, despite claims to the contrary, there is no strong connection with the Ci'en temples and martial arts.

Other issue is the modern way we do kata i.e. an instruction to get ready, assume the first posture of the kata, announce the name of the kata, an instruction to begin, and then do the kata. This way of doing the kata separates the first move from the rest of the kata; such that the second move is often considered the first. This helps spread the idea that the first move is symbolic, a greeting, etc. However, when we view that kata in its entirety by simply doing it without the modern formalities, we can often see that there is nothing special about the first movement, and that the second movement (often considered the first) frequently flows on from it.

Passai / Bassai also has the same hand position on the first and second move. On the first, the hand is lower. On the second, the hands come up as the legs cross. So, if is a greeting, what’s all that about? A funkier greeting for the hipper members of the militia? Looks like a joint-lock takedown to me.

As I say, if you hear hoof beats, then think horses … not unicorns. The kata are combative in nature so Occam’s razor would have us view the motion from a combative perspective. It makes little sense to assume it’s a greeting based on a common position alone. By the same token, we could argue that a horse stance, with one hand on the hip, and the other extended, must originate from the wild west because it’s the same position a cowboy would be in when on horseback, holding the reins, and firing his six-shooter. Commonality in appearance does not prove common origin.

I know I often come across as “Relentless Mr Scepticism” when such ideas are put forth. I know that some like such ideas because they feel that add a “mystery” or “depth” to the kata. I know that by dismissing them I may come across as trying to remove that “mystery” or “depth”. I can therefore understand why some push back when I shoot this stuff down.

However, the kata truly do have a great depth and fascination without regurgitated myths and very suspect “history”. Indeed, this “false depth” often obscures the true depth. There is also plenty of mystery. There is lots about the kata that we don’t know, and probably never will know, especially when it comes to their history and origins. To me, an honest mystery is better than a false “solution”.

Nimrod Nir wrote:
To the best of my knowledge (and also according to what I learned here in the forum) we do not know the origin of the "opening salutations" and all assumptions regarding them being a salutation or respect gesture of any kind are just that - assumptions.

Absolutely right! When it comes to the “salutations”, I often point to the writings of Shigeru Egami (a senior student of Gichin Funakoshi). In his book, he shows all the various “salutations” and then states he has no idea what any of them represent and that further research is needed. I love that! It’s so honest! In regards to that research, I think we are better assuming combative function (based on everything we DO know historically) and not obscure symbolism (where we have reach for nothing but speculative “commonalities” with no supporting documentation at all).

Heath White wrote:
It seems to be common knowledge in the Chinese TMA community …If you google either of those phrases, and maybe add "Ming dynasty", you will find plenty of sources.  How high-quality they are I cannot say.

As with lots of these things, they are often not “sources” but restated opinions. It’s the logical fallacy of Argumentum Ad Populum i.e. “something just be true because lots of people say it is true”.

To my knowledge, there are no sources confirming that hand position, as found in the karate kata, is a greeting. It’s therefore way more logical to assume that a motion in a combative sequence of motions (i.e. a kata) is also combative.

All the best,

Iain

PS Absolutely nothing in this is directed at Jesse personally. I like him and believe does a lot of good for karate. His enthusiasm, work ethic, and desire to look at all aspects of karate helps bring the wider community together in a way that no one else does. I think his influence is extremely beneficial to  karate; and feel he often does not get enough credit for this important role (I can’t think of another modern karateka with as wide an appeal across all aspects of our art?). I am sharing my views on the idea shared in this specific video, which is an idea which has been doing the rounds for a very long time.

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hello, To get a hint of cultural and historical context, here's a link, with references, to get folks started, if they wish.

https://martialartscultureandhistory.com/en/a-brief-history-of-secret-society-tiandihui/

Kindest Regards,

Ally

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi All,

AllyWhytock wrote:
To get a hint of cultural and historical context, here's a link, with references, to get folks started, if they wish.

Interesting article! This bit caught my attention:

Other interpretations are given to define the symbolism of this greeting which is most often designated by Bao Quan Li 抱拳 礼 and which can be translated as “the salute of the wrapped fist”. These interpretations are interesting, however I do not wish to dwell on the subject here.

While the author concentrates on the Ming Secret Society interpretation, it seems others interpretations exist that the author does not wish to get into.

I did a quick bit of Googling and found the following:

https://www.topchinatravel.com/china-guide/chinese-etiquette-fist-and-palm-salute.htm

History

Fist and palm salute is one of the typical Chinese etiquette with a history of more than 3000 years. Since West Zhou Dynasty (BC 1046-BC 771), people had already used this etiquette when meeting peers (it is said that most Chinese traditional etiquette is originated from Zhou Li, created by the Duke of Zhou [1042–1035 BC] in early West Dynasty). In ancient time, if people met a stranger, one would tend to prepare for a fight if they have to, and hands were always ready for holding any weapons. Holding hands together pointed to themselves was a gesture of saying relax, I am not with any weapons and I am not here to pick a fight. Later it became the etiquette when meeting each other and show gratitude. In Modern China, fist and palm salute has already been one of the common etiquette frequently used on traditional occasions. Chinese people show their respect of others through distance, which is different from western people usually showing through physical closeness. Around 100 years ago, handshake was introduced to China.

In that regard, it is a little like western waving (i.e. “here is my hand, you can see I am not holding anything”). However, this article suggests it is not related to any secret society, has been around for a very long time (thousands of year earlier), it is recorded in a book on etiquette, and originated from the nobility.

Doing an image search for the Duke of Zhou – said to be the originator of this greeting above – there are a number of paintings and statues where he is covering his right hand with his left (see image).

Probably nothing to do with the secret society then? Or does it all come down to whether the open hand is straight or curved? And where does that leave all the various style variations where some do curve the fingers and others have them straighter? Wado’s Jion is from the 19th century secret society, but Shotokan’s is thousands of years older and comes from the nobility of the West Zhou Dynasty? I fear this is the kind of mess we can get into when we conflate superficial similarity with “proven” historical links.

As a little aside, the linked article above also states that men and women do the greeting differently:

How to do Fist and Palm Salute Properly?

The gesture of fist and palm salute: firstly, stand at attention. If you are male, right-hand half-fist, and then left hand hold the right hand in front of your chest. Watching each other in the eyes, raise both hand to brow, bent down and shake hands toward each other gently for three times … Noted that in history, for male Chinese people they considered the left as the important and honourable side.  If you are female, the honourable side is the right, and you should do the fist palm salute the other way which should be right-hand on the top.

As I say in the post above, I am extremely sceptical about the secret society thing as the hand position is overt and obvious. Nothing even remotely subtle about it and EVERYONE would see it; both fellow members and those you wanted to keep your membership a secret from. Furthermore, five mins on the internet suggest that it’s been used a greeting in China for thousands of years.

Interestingly, I read some news reports that it’s having something of a resurgence due to a desire not to shake hands due to Covid.

Even if the kata position was the greeting under discussion, it does call into question the strength of the "secret soceity link".  It seems to have origins that go back much further and has a far wider use among the population.

I am also very doubtful that the position in the kata is any form of greeting. A common hand position does not automatically mean common origin. Other elements of the greeting – such as the shaking of the hands three times, etc – are entirely absent from what we see in the kata too (athough it may have changed over time?).

I think it much more likely that it merely looks like one single element of the greeting … and it looks EXCATLY LIKE A THROAT GRAB. Occam’s razor tells me that the logical position to take is that a combative kata is made up of combative motions. Therefore, when a kata motion looks like both a single aspect of greeting and exactly like throat grab, then it’s much more likely to be a throat grab. I hear hoofbeats, I think horses.

All the best,

Iain

Kiwikarateka
Kiwikarateka's picture

I'll throw my hat in but, all I have is speculation I'm afriad :p

This posture doesn't just appear at the beginning of kata, Seiyunchin from Goju Ryu also features this "greeting" twice about one third into the kata.

Coincidence? Perhaps, there are only so many configurations for tha hands to adopt after all, but this could lead credence to the idea that it's a combative posture and not a greeting.

In regards to it being a greeting, I feel like I have seen videos of Chinese masters using this before/after doing a form, I assume as a sign of respect to the audience. So if a kata was based of a Kung Fu form from a Chinese master who tended to do this "greeting" at the start of their forms, it could have "inheritied" the posture for that reason. Another idea is that people just wanted to emulate this posture because the Kung Fu masters did it and they wanted to be "hip" too.

The fact that kata tend to be very codified and formal in how they are performed could have lead to a relaxed greeting posture changing into a rigid starting posture.

Cheers,

Mat  

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Mat,

Kiwikarateka wrote:
This posture doesn't just appear at the beginning of kata, Seiyunchin from Goju Ryu also features this "greeting" twice about one third into the kata.

That’s a good observation. It also appears mid-kata, in various forms, in other kata (i.e. Chinte, Chinto, etc). Additionally, when it does appear at the start of kata, it is often not in the position one would associate with a greeting i.e. Bassai / Passai (held low), Wanshu / Empi (held on the left hip), etc.

Kiwikarateka wrote:
Perhaps, there are only so many configurations for the hands to adopt after all, but this could lead credence to the idea that it's a combative posture and not a greeting.

I would definitely agree. Just because it looks like a greeting does not mean it is. Even those where it does more closely resemble a greeting (Jion, Jitte and Ji’in) have following motions that would suggest a combative function. Additionally, for those kata, we also have conflicting myths. Do these kate come from the Ci'en temples or the militia? Personally, I think the evidence for both is far from solid, but it can’t be both.

Kiwikarateka wrote:
The fact that kata tend to be very codified and formal in how they are performed could have lead to a relaxed greeting posture changing into a rigid starting posture.

That’s a fair point and certainly not beyond the realms of possibility. However, I would say that there is no evidence of a direct connection to “secret militias”, and that there is evidence of the greeting being used long before that time. I therefore think it is safe to rule out that specific connection; even if we do think it is a greeting. Personally, the combative nature of kata, the motions that follow, and the fact the hand position also appears in numerous variations, at numerous points, in numerous kata would strongly suggest that a passing similarity with a greeting is not enough to definitely label it as such. Therefore, seeing it from a combative perspective remains the logical position in the absence of solid evidence to the contrary.

All the best,

Iain

Heath White
Heath White's picture

There are many movements in forms that get multiple interpretations for bunkai purposes, and I think it's well-understood that only a subset of these were originally intended.  Even if some movement was originally a salutation, we can give it a martial interpretation.  That said, I think there is a case that, historically speaking, sometimes a salutation is just a salutation.  What I would be wary of is a scenario like this:  a hundred years hence, when MMA has taken over the martial world, someone rediscovers video of the Pinan kata.  "Why do they always start with that bowing motion?"  "It's a general sign of respect."  "No, this is a fighting form.  That's a head butt!"

I think it's uncontroversial that the traditional Chinese greeting was left hand wrapped around right fist.  You see this for example at the beginning and end of Jion.  If we know it's a salutation in ordinary contexts, I would guess it's a salutation in the form.  Especially if it shows up at both beginning and end.  It's the same logic as "bowing in the form is a sign of respect."

Another point is that many Chinese forms begin and end with a salutation like this, and we know it's a salutation (not that you couldn't come up with some martial application for it) because different styles modify the fist-and-palm salute.  https://www.thefiveancestorsfist.com/single-post/2017/12/31/the-kung-fu-hand-salutation   Possibly, some of the non-standard karate "salutations" are from some oddball style now lost. 

None of this applies to movements in the middle of a form, obviously.  And maybe some of the "salutation" movements are really originally combative.  I just don't think there's any  reason to insist that all of them were. 

colby
colby's picture
e wrote:

PS Absolutely nothing in this is directed at Jesse personally. I like him and believe does a lot of good for karate. His enthusiasm, work ethic, and desire to look at all aspects of karate helps bring the wider community together in a way that no one else does. I think his influence is extremely beneficial to  karate; and feel he often does not get enough credit for this important role (I can’t think of another modern karateka with as wide an appeal across all aspects of our art?). I am sharing my views on the idea shared in this specific video, which is an idea which has been doing the rounds for a very long time.

I mean he's the only guy besides the guy who owned the Dojo Bar that can go to any of the oakinawan masters and train with them that i am aware of. Which is a pretty big deal.

Personally, i am not invested too much into either theory. I like Iain' explanation but if you were to say that it serves a purpose similar to how the middle finger was used against the French, i could see that too

what might be cool is to maybe talk with Patrick Mccarthy about it. Not only is an established Karate guy but also an established White Crane guy which is where that salute comes from. So what his masters told him about it might be really interesting to hear. Or what the old Crane documents might say about them.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Heath,

Heath White wrote:
I think it's uncontroversial that the traditional Chinese greeting was left hand wrapped around right fist.  You see this for example at the beginning and end of Jion.

Not all versions of Jion look like that though. Quite a few, including the version I was taught, have the fingers of the right hand straight. So does the version Hanashiro (a student of Itosu) shows in Karate-Do Taikan. I think this lends credence to the fact it’s not a salutation, but simply looks like it in some versions.

Heath White wrote:
Especially if it shows up at both beginning and end.  It's the same logic as "bowing in the form is a sign of respect."

There are quite a few motions that bookend certain kata. For example, putting the left hand on top of the right hand in front of the groin. I am not aware of any historical use of such a position as a sign of respect. Personally, I often see this “bookending” as a return to the initial action following the exploration of all the various options that flow on from it (and subsequent positions) during the kata.

Heath White wrote:
None of this applies to movements in the middle of a form, obviously.  And maybe some of the "salutation" movements are really originally combative. I just don't think there's any reason to insist that all of them were.

If we see the same position in the middle, and accept it is combative, then I think there is a no automatic reason to add weight to the idea it is a salutation just because it is at the start (for the reasons outlined above).

There are also some reason to hold to the view that 100% of the kata is combative. For example, we have the Kaisai no Genri of Miyagi / Toguchi which states, “Every movement in kata is significant and is to be used in application.”

Above all, I think analysis of the kata shows the motions to be combative as the second motions of Jion, Jitte and Ji’in all seem to flow on from a throat grab.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Colby,

colby wrote:
Personally, i am not invested too much into either theory. I like Iain' explanation but if you were to say that it serves a purpose similar to how the middle finger was used against the French, i could see that too

That’s a myth too though :-) I think you may be referring to the myth that the British insult of holding up the ring and index finger stems from the supposed practise of the French troops cutting off the fingers of English bowmen so they could no longer fire i.e. “We still have our fingers, and you are about to get yours!”. It’s a widespread myth, but false. It appeared as an insult long after the middle ages and no one really knows it’s origins.

As an aside, that hand position appears in Chinte. Furthermore, cupping the bicep and forcefully bending the arm into an L-shape is also a commonly used non-verbal insult, and that appears in the Naihanchi / Tekki series. Just because something looks like a non-verbal greeting / insult does not mean it is. I think the same can be said of the “salutations”.

colby wrote:
… but also an established White Crane guy which is where that salute comes from.

As per my post above, it seems it actually originated with the Duke of Zhou and is not specifically martial. However, we now have four competing theories: A salutation devised by the Duke of Zhou; a salutation used by secret militias in the Ming period; a salutation originating in white crane; and a throat grab. Furthermore, there’s the assertion (which I find very doubtful) that the kata that start with that hand position (Jion, Jitte and Ji’in) all originate from the Ci'en (“Jion”) temples. These are all mutually exclusive and can’t all be true.

This is the probably with so much of karate history as there’s a lot of speculation, with little to support it, which quickly becomes repeated as confirmed fact.

My money is on the throat grab because we would expect to see combative motions in a combative form.

All the best,

Iain

colby
colby's picture

colby wrote:
Personally, i am not invested too much into either theory. I like Iain' explanation but if you were to say that it serves a purpose similar to how the middle finger was used against the French, i could see that too

Iain Abernethy wrote:
That’s a myth too though :-) I think you may be referring to the myth that the British insult of holding up the ring and index finger stems from the supposed practise of the French troops cutting off the fingers of English bowmen so they could no longer fire i.e. “We still have our fingers, and you are about to get yours!”. It’s a widespread myth, but false. It appeared as an insult long after the middle ages and no one really knows it’s origins.

As an aside, that hand position appears in Chinte. Furthermore, cupping the bicep and forcefully bending the arm into an L-shape is also a commonly used non-verbal insult, and that appears in the Naihanchi / Tekki series. Just because something looks like a non-verbal greeting / insult does not mean it is. I think the same can be said of the “salutations”.

colby wrote:
… but also an established White Crane guy which is where that salute comes from.

Iain Abernethy wrote:
As per my post above, it seems it actually originated with the Duke of Zhou and is not specifically martial. However, we now have four competing theories: A salutation devised by the Duke of Zhou; a salutation used by secret militias in the Ming period; a salutation originating in white crane; and a throat grab. Furthermore, there’s the assertion (which I find very doubtful) that the kata that start with that hand position (Jion, Jitte and Ji’in) all originate from the Ci'en (“Jion”) temples. These are all mutually exclusive and can’t all be true.

This is the probably with so much of karate history as there’s a lot of speculation, with little to support it, which quickly becomes repeated as confirmed fact.

My money is on the throat grab because we would expect to see combative motions in a combative form.

Really? So was always one finger or was it two fingers then one?

I mean like the throat grab so it works for me. Though, I still maintain that a compare and contrast video or Q and A with a white crane person would give you a lot of hits on youtube.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Colby,

colby wrote:
Really? So was always one finger or was it two fingers then one?

In the UK it is still two fingers (index and middle), although we are also happy to adopt the Americanised single middle finger when appropriate. No one is quite sure of the origins of the British non-verbal insult, but the “captured archers” thing can be discussed as the timeline is all wrong.

colby wrote:
I mean like the throat grab so it works for me. Though, I still maintain that a compare and contrast video or Q and A with a white crane person would give you a lot of hits on youtube.

Comparing and contrasting styles is always interesting to me because it underlines that there a common martial principles that transcend any idea of style. I’ve done a few like these before with Randy Brown, Wim Demeere, etc. They are practitioners of Chinese styles with a pragmatic outlook. If anyone knows of a White Crane person who also seeks modern day functionality, then it would be great to compare notes.

As regards the salutation specifically, I am keen to avoid looking at one of the “origin stories” around them in isolation. As per the above post, there are numerous contradictory claims. As someone who likes to keep it simple, I will run with throat grab until the evidence comes to the contrary.

All the best,

Iain