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shotokanman70
shotokanman70's picture
Hockey punch pad drill

Here's a drill for all Canadians ;) Simple, fun and and functional. Training in chaos, locating limbs and targets and responding to the enemy's actions. Making proper use of hikite!

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

While I really like that drill, I think your punches would be more powerful if you pulled the empty hand to the hip instead of using it in the practical way shown ;-)

All the best,

Iain

PS Can someone please invent a font for sarcasm? ;-)

shotokanman70
shotokanman70's picture

Iain, you are so right. You can't see it in the video but my back heel is up! I have so much to learn.

PASmith
PASmith's picture

Some forums and discussion baord DO have a sarcasm font. :)

Marc
Marc's picture

Clear and simple. I like it. :)

Thanks for sharing.

Take care,

Marc  

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

shotokanman70 wrote:
You can't see it in the video but my back heel is up! I have so much to learn.

You must have had the heel down … otherwise you would have been propellered backward by the back shock of your punch ;-)

PASmith wrote:
Some forums and discussion boards DO have a sarcasm font. :)

I soooo believe you ;-)

All the best,

Iain

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Shotokanman70

I told you Hikite will stay with you for rest of your life no matter if you lift your heel or not :) 

Great clip btw.

Kind regards

Les

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Looks like a fun one! I do have one question about your approach with this one, if you don't mind, Andy? Do you include the potential for the opponent to stiff-arm the striker's shoulder away, as a natural attempt to reduce the effectiveness of the punches? Or the grabber trying to cover the side of their head with their shoulder while still grabbing? These are both easy to deal with, of course, but I've had my mind focused on "training for failure" a lot, as of late, so I figured I would see how you approach it. Thanks!

MattG
MattG's picture

My only source of critecism is that when your left hand is holding the enemy's left hand, you are open to him striking you with his right hand. He also has the benefit of controling your body while you only control his limb.

In short, how do you stop this from happening:

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

MattG wrote:
In short, how do you stop this from happening:

It’s worth noting that although many punches were thrown there, none of them – from either fighter – did anything significant. That’s mainly because the locating arm is in front of the opponent’s shoulder, so they can’t effectively rotate their body into the punch. The result is arm-only punches.

My own thoughts: The only two times the enemy can’t hit us are when A) They are totally incapacitated. B) There is too great a distance between us i.e. we have escaped. At all other times we need to minimize the effectiveness of the enemy’s strikes, while maximizing our own. Hikite increases accuracy massively and it can disrupt the enemy’s posture. This advantage should be exploited in full. If the situation should change, such that the advantage is no longer as great, then we need to switch to other options. We can and should insolate and drill “Plan A”, and in other drills we can look at how to switch to alternative plans should the enemy’s actions necessitate it so advantage is maintained.

All the best,

Iain

MattG
MattG's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Hikite increases accuracy massively and it can disrupt the enemy’s posture. This advantage should be exploited in full. If the situation should change, such that the advantage is no longer as great, then we need to switch to other options.

Thanks for the response. Maybe I'm not getting something but the advantage just does not seem that great to me. Shotokanman70 is square on to his enemy, but if he moved a little further around to the right this would line the enemies head up nicely for the straight right punch while making it harder for the enemy to strike back. Standing square on just seems less safe, even with the hikite. Is this just for the sake of the drill?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Matt,

MattG wrote:
Maybe I'm not getting something but the advantage just does not seem that great to me.

I was talking in general terms in the post (because other videos had moved the conversation away from the initial drill specifically), but the hikite in the drill is also creating advantages because it facilitates the landing for shots to the head. The hand on the side the enemy would use to protect himself is controlled by the hikite. The enemy has to do something to deal with these shots. If they ignore them, they will quickly be incapacitated. If they are using their arms to cover (commonly what happens) they abandon the grip. We feel that because of the hikite and can switch to the following strikes now that the enemy’s grip, and the advantages that gives them (also hikite), have been removed.

MattG wrote:
Standing square on just seems less safe, even with the hikite. Is this just for the sake of the drill?

From the position in the drill, the enemy initially has an advantage because they have secured a grip and are striking. Not ideal, but it’s important to work from such positions so we can regain the initiative.  We control the griping arm and start throwing shots over the of it. The enemy may instinctively remove the grip to cover the strikes (as discussed in the video).  

While getting an angle would be great, the enemy wants us on his attack line too … and because they have a grip on us, they know the as we move through feel (their use of hikite). If we simply move to the side, then the enemy follows us to realign themselves.

If getting the advantage of the angle is not immediately possible, then getting the advantage of dominance through rapid impact still puts us in a very favourable position. We also need to be careful that we don’t accidentally put a “pause” in the rate of fire as we move to an angle because that gives the enemy the gap needed to regroup. If we can get an angle in such a way that we can maintain it, then we obviously should. However, working from the position shown in the video, we are unlikely to get it from the off.

In short, it’s the reseized initiative, rate of fire, dominance, and the effects of the impact that ensures the advantage, and all off those things are facilitated by the hikite.

All the best,

Iain

shotokanman70
shotokanman70's picture

Hi Noah. We didn't address thise issues here but your question is valid. We were merely responding to a lull in th ebarage of attacks. A stiff arm or flaring elbow (of the grabbing arm) would be something that would have to dealt with. I might add a low kick to this some day. As you cover up and turn to your right you could kick the groin to get the attacker to drop their hands and open up their head for you.

Wastelander wrote:

Looks like a fun one! I do have one question about your approach with this one, if you don't mind, Andy? Do you include the potential for the opponent to stiff-arm the striker's shoulder away, as a natural attempt to reduce the effectiveness of the punches? Or the grabber trying to cover the side of their head with their shoulder while still grabbing? These are both easy to deal with, of course, but I've had my mind focused on "training for failure" a lot, as of late, so I figured I would see how you approach it. Thanks!

MattG
MattG's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
If getting the advantage of the angle is not immediately possible, then getting the advantage of dominance through rapid impact still puts us in a very favourable position.

Iain Abernethy wrote:
In short, it’s the reseized initiative, rate of fire, dominance, and the effects of the impact that ensures the advantage, and all off those things are facilitated by the hikite.

Thanks Ian that does make a bit more sense to me now. I'll be trying this one out soon.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

MattG wrote:
Thanks Ian that does make a bit more sense to me now. I'll be trying this one out soon.

I’m pleased that was of some use. Thanks for the help unpacking it all.

All the best,

Iain

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

I like this. As noted by others there are weaknesses (like everything has) but I think it has value. Two things: One; do you train moving from this to pummeling for a full clinch ( ala Heian Yondan)? I think that could be valuable and work well. Two; the mechanics of the elbow would be better if the partner with the pad held it about 8 inches or so in front of his face and pushed out at the moment of impact. We used this method when I trained Jeet Kune Do and Muay Thai and we were able to hit really hard without injury. Our thinking with the pads was to always keep them as close to the actual target as possible to make sure we were keeping the lines of travel our strikes took as realistic as possible and avoid creating bad muscle memory.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

John M Avilla wrote:
Our thinking with the pads was to always keep them as close to the actual target as possible to make sure we were keeping the lines of travel our strikes took as realistic as possible and avoid creating bad muscle memory.

I personally prefer to keep some space. Partner drills and sparring will ensure the right placement on an actual human body (the training matrix and all that). For me, the pads are not for that but for power generation.  We therefore need them to be away from the body because a powerful striker will be able to drive through the pads and hence injury to the holder is likely.

I know you are not saying this, but I know people who say the pads should always be held next to the body and cite the placement argument as justification. To me, that immediately raises the question of how they avoid injury … and the answer is almost always that neither they nor their students can hit with meaningful force.

John M Avilla wrote:
the mechanics of the elbow would be better if the partner with the pad held it about 8 inches or so in front of his face and pushed out at the moment of impact.

I can see what you are saying here, but my preference would be to always avoid pushing the pad onto the strike. Pushing the pad forward makes for a good thud; even if it is the pad holder who generated it. This makes it harder for the student to progress because the feedback is not as obvious i.e. a weak strike still hits “hard” because the holder pushed the pad onto the strike. Good for intact egos: not good for skill development. We need those “taps” to work out what went wrong and how to correct it. The pad can and should move as a person moves, but generally people don’t throw themselves onto strikes. I’d therefore consider that as something to be avoided when pad holding (the exemption being the pad representing an advancing enemy).

As I see it, the trick is to be consistent with the pads. They should be away from the body for safety; they should be held firmly, but not pushed onto the strike; and they should, as far as is practicable, be held to mimic the distancing i.e. if you consistently put the pads 12” away from the body parts being struck, you can get close to the actual flow, placement and line of attack. There are always some compromises though because ultimately you are hitting pads and not people (especially if there is some gripping involved).

All the best,

Iain

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

Yeah, I can see what you are saying here regarding power generation. That said, we used the method I laid out and produced some very good strikers. The only issue I personally ran into on pushing with the pads was on uppercuts. I am a very small person (about 130 lbs) and pushing (or pulling really) tended to hurt my shoulder. Never got hurt otherwise though. Just wondering (and to be clear we didn't make this distinction) what do you think of the idea of using the pads as I laid out above and making the power correction with heavy bag and dummy training?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi John,

John M Avilla wrote:
what do you think of the idea of using the pads as I laid out above and making the power correction with heavy bag and dummy training?

The focus mitts can help develop timing, accuracy, distancing, etc. but, for me, the overriding reason for using them is power generation. I personally would not want them pushed toward the target for the aforementioned reason (i.e. obscures the feedback to the striker).

A bag is a really useful bit of kit because you don’t need a partner. You can also hit it with strikes such as front kicks and side kicks. Its major disadvantage is that it does not move like a person does. Same with the dummy. The dummy does have the advantage of being more anatomically correct though. I personally make use of all three items, but I do place an emphasis on the focus mitts because they can give the opportunity to practise “power on the move” through changing distances and angles. You also have a person you can grip, lock and throw who is holding and this gives the opportunity to integrate grappling and impact. The focus mitts are therefore the primary impact tool for us.

All bits of kit have their strengths and weaknesses; and all bits of kit can be used in a variety of ways. For me, I’m always looking for big impact on the pads; and any safety compromises that effect flow and placement are corrected with partner drills and sparring. I’d therefore never push the pads onto the strike. I know others do, but it’s something I personally advise against.  

All the best,

Iain

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

Cool. Thanks for taking the time to reply. The aliveness of your approach is definitely a plus.