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Pierre
Pierre's picture
Tengu-ryu Karatedo

Hello!

Did you ever hear about Tengu-ryu Karatedo ? If not, here is a quick presentation, followed by a few doubts I have about this system.

Soke Roland Habersetzer is well known in the french-speaking countries as a pioneer of karate in France and as the author of about 30 books on karate, as well as others on Kung-Fu, Self-defense, Kobudo, etc. As a passionate traditionalist, he has always been very critical of the « downward slides » of modern karate. In 1974 he founded the CRB (Centre de Recherche Budo) in Strasbourg, France. 17 dojos from several countries including Russia and Canada are now part of the organisation. Over the years he has built his own vision of karatedo, which finally became incarnated in a new "school" : Tengu-ryu Karatedo. According to its founder, it is not really a school, but a « direction » that can fit any existing style.

Tengu-ryu promotes « a realistic state of mind that introduces the notion of stress in a fighting situation where survival is at stake, and the responsability of the chosen action ». Its central idea is « do not fight, do not suffer (in the sense of not passively enduring) ». Basically, Self-defense. Its practice is based on three katas, which really represent the core of this « Way » (Tengu-no-michi) :

1. Kumite-no-kata (created in 1974) : It is a serie of ten mini-fights, done with a partner, tori and uke switching each time. It is a « search for harmony through a dialogue of the classical techniques of karatedo ».

2. Kara-ho Tengu-no-kata (created in 2003) : It is a « behavior kata », much more based on principle than on technique. It is practiced in four directions, at three different ranges, and adaptable to kobudo weapons and to firearms (Ho-jutsu).

3. Tengu Goshin-no-kata (created in 2006) : A kata of personal protection, made of 10 series, done with a partner. It works on self-defense principles such as tunnel vision/ peripheral vision, color code, degrees of reactivity depending on the situation, scanning-searching, etc. The partner « is not considered as a karateka but as an aggressor such as could be encountered in the real world ».

Obviously the man has been around, and didn’t get his 9th dan in a treat cone. But still, here are a few points I find questionable:

• All the self-defense principles are part of a functional karate and can (should) be practiced using the existing techniques and katas, and I wonder if there is a need to reinvent the wheel.

• The guard (tengu-no-kamae) is highly debatable. If we’re talking self-defense, you are not going to take such an obvious guard (you probably won’t take any), and for fighting…well, it’s just bad. The first movement is literally the drawing of a gun, since the kata is meant to be adaptable for weapons ! (see video and website)

• The kumite-no-kata was created in a spirit of « harmony », somewhat like aïkido. It’s a nice idea in itself, but we’re talking about practical martial art here. It seems to be in direct opposition to « a realistic state of mind that introduces the notion of stress in a fighting situation where survival is at stake »

• Others points that are a bit too specific to be discussed here.

I’d be really happy to know your thoughts about this. Did you know about Tengu-ryu? Do you see a particular value in this approach? Do you see any other weird or questionable things?

I made this presentation as compact as I could. If you want any further information, see the links bellow.

Quotes are all from Roland Habersetzer’s « Les trois katas fondamentaux du Tengu-ryu Karatedo » (my translation).

Link to videos of the kumite-no-kata : http://karate-crb.com/kumite_video.htm

Link to the CRB website : http://www.tengu.fr/index13.html

(There is an english version)

Video about a CRB dojo (sorry, it's in French) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNLbrhpZeWQ

All the best,

Pierre Estoppey

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Pierre,

I’m always reluctant to express a viewpoint on a system that I’m not personally familiar with because a snapshot can be misleading. Given elements out of context are going to be viewed through the lens of our pre-existing views and that can lead to misunderstandings about the their purpose.

Pierre wrote:
1. Kumite-no-kata (created in 1974) : It is a serie of ten mini-fights, done with a partner, tori and uke switching each time. It is a « search for harmony through a dialogue of the classical techniques of karatedo ».

Pierre wrote:
Link to videos of the kumite-no-kata : http://karate-crb.com/kumite_video.htm

Viewed on a “as is” basis, I would have reservations about the practicality of the above. The distancing, timing and reactive nature of the drills would mean they would have little relevance to the close and chaotic world of close-range combat. They have many of the problems we see with regular X-step sparring drills. There also seems to be some deliberate dropping to the floor which would also be problematic. When isolated, there are some sound methods in there … but there are also un-used hikites, “lower cross blocks” against front kicks, etc .

As I say, as an outsider I can’t comment on the wider system; but viewed in isolation I do have reservations about the linked Kumite-no-kata.

All the best,

Iain

Pierre
Pierre's picture

Thank you very much for your comment Iain. I agree with your cautiousness. To tell the whole truth, I'm personally involved, since my kid is being taught this in his dojo. Which puts me in a uneasy position because I really don't feel aligned with the Tengu stuff. I'm thinking of removing him from the place, but we're in a small town and all the other dojos are sport-oriented. So I guess I'm pretty stuck!

Best regards,

Pierre

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

If the videos are supposed to be Karatedo "art", then they are definitely that, they are nicely performed. If they are supposed to be practical, they definitely are not. So, it's hard to say anything about the "self defense" portion of the curriculum without more information.

As far as having a kid there, my kids take took Tae Kwon Do for a while, at least one of them will probably return post-Covid. I simply tell them what they are learning is (typically) not very practical, and that I am available if they ever want to talk about how to translate what they learn in class into something more practical.

For children especially, I think the value of training in martial arts is mostly unrelated to self-defense. That's not to say I don't think it's important for kids to have some basic self defens information and skills, but typically what they get out of Karate training at a young age is only tangentially related to that. Of course if  place is doing a specific anti-bullying thing or something that is different.

At least in the US, It is also not unusual for even quite reputable Karate schools to be very poor at the "self defense" piece. In fact, I would say most dojos I have been to aside from the ones I ended up staying at are poor for self defense, mainly because so many Karateka are still stuck in the idea that they must do everything "by the book" and somehow make it work for art, self defense, consensual fighting, etc. all at the same time.

So, I'm guessing you could go to a random reputable style Karate school and still face many of the same issues. The places doing applied Karate usually aren't hard to identify...and there aren't that many of them. It's better than it used to be, but the Karate world is not very focused on practicality overall, in my experience. Like I said, that very much includes the world of established styles.

My current feeling is that if my kids stay in the arts long term, one of the best things I can do is just introduce them to thinking critically about them. I do this and "play fight" regularly with mine when they want to, explaining why what they do isn't working, what might work instead etc. That way there is a no-pressure way of them actually learning whether a thing works or not. My hope is that by the time they are teenagers (if they are still involved in martial arts) they will be able to make the decision to train where they want, and what level of practicality, art, competition etc. they are interested in.

Basically, I see why you're concerned, but I think you just need to ask what you expect your children to get out of going there, and whether they are getting that.

Pierre
Pierre's picture

Hi Zach, thank you for your kind answer. My son is twelve, and has been training there for five years. As you say, I encourage him to think critically about karate. And it only works too well! Now he has many doubts about the teaching, and his motivation has sunk. The situation is all the more delicate since his two sensei are my former students! Yeah, I know, it's starting to sound quite cobra-kaï-esque. Apparently our conception of karate didn't evolve in the same direction. Anyway, my son is showing more and more interest for combat sports, especially BJJ, and I think it's the direction he will take. And I'll train him in karate if he wants.

Speaking of combat sports, I read your account of your boxing experience with great interest. Are you still in it? I'm planning to take boxing lessons myself, as soon as the gyms reopen. Of course my aim is to enrich my karate. If you had one advice to give me, what would it be?

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Pierre wrote:
Hi Zach, thank you for your kind answer. My son is twelve, and has been training there for five years. As you say, I encourage him to think critically about karate. And it only works too well! Now he has many doubts about the teaching, and his motivation has sunk. The situation is all the more delicate since his two sensei are my former students! Yeah, I know, it's starting to sound quite cobra-kaï-esque. Apparently our conception of karate didn't evolve in the same direction. Anyway, my son is showing more and more interest for combat sports, especially BJJ, and I think it's the direction he will take. And I'll train him in karate if he wants.

Speaking of combat sports, I read your account of your boxing experience with great interest. Are you still in it? I'm planning to take boxing lessons myself, as soon as the gyms reopen. Of course my aim is to enrich my karate. If you had one advice to give me, what would it be?

Yes, I'm still doing it, we closed for a while due to lockdown but have reopened. I planned to stay one year, and have about six months left.

I guess my advice would just be to soak up everything you can and figure out how to translate what you learn into your Karate, but I'm sure you already plan to do that! The other advice I can give is that if you are middle aged, prepare yourself first. I started off doing at least a half hour serious bag session or hiit training most days before the gym opened because I figured it would be tough...it was. It made me glad I prepped myself a little beforehand. The conditioning comes quick as long as you just stick with it.

Anyway i'm excited for you, it is definitely one of the best things I've done for my Karate, you will not believe how much your hands and footwork will improve.

The other thing to be prepared for is just that you might be the oldest guy in the place...even if you are only in your 30's. as a 44 year old, I am (as far as I know) the oldest student there currently by 15 years. My hunch is that traditional Boxing gyms skew younger than  MMA schools etc. as well...at least in the US.

Pierre
Pierre's picture

I'll try to boost up my cardio before going, thanks for the advice. And yes, I'll probably be the old dude (45)...it will be challenging and humbling I guess. That's the Way!