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andyscriven
andyscriven's picture
Tang Soo Do / Soo Bahk Do Hyung application

Apart from the hyungs we share with karate their is little information out their on the application of the Chil sung and Yuk Ro hyung. I see similarities in other systems when demnstrationing Bunkai but wanted to know what other clubs do to cover this topic.

Obviously each move has many different applications but I thought I would share a small drill and encourage the sharing of your experience so we may continue to learn.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Thanks so much for posting this. It would be great if the Korean forms section was active, particularly with regards to the forms that are uniquely Koran and have no Japanese or Okinawan equivalents. Thanks once again for sharing!

All the best,

Iain

Oerjan Nilsen
Oerjan Nilsen's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

It would be great if the Korean forms section was active, particularly with regards to the forms that are uniquely Koran and have no Japanese or Okinawan equivalents.

I believe the main reason people don't post on the Korean forms is not because people are not researching them (and finding interesting applications) but becauseof how they are generally met when they present them. The attitude seems to be that the Koreans know nothing so any applications from their forms are free imagination. I do not agree with this, but when you meet a brick wall of this attitude you stop posting. At least I did. If people genuinely wants to see more posts on the Korean forms the attitude towards those posting should be applauded. As it is today the best you can get is no response at all. If you do not believe me you van just read through the last few discussions here. I'm sure you'll see what I mean. That being said: thank you so much for sharing this, I really enjoyed it. I do not practice this form myself, but I recently learned another form with a similar technique sequence. I'll see if this fits in within that form. Thank you, and I do hope to see more of your material in the future:-)

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi Oerjan I don't know about Koreans knowing nothing, I think that is unlikely to be the case, but I do understand your feelings towards a perceived lack of interest when ideas are shared by way of video. I'm not sure why videos get very little in the way of response, my own videos don't. As the person sharing you obviously think you're sharing something worthwhile, maybe even educational but usually they get very little in the way of feedback. One of the reasons, I believe, is if people are not too taken width a clip they'd rather say nothing than something that could be perceived as negative. I personally have no problem with people commenting on my videos with a genuine query or opinion, but I understand peoples reluctance to do so. The stuff I do, & share on video is stuff that is massively well received by my students, the parents of my juniors, and the many people who have attended my seminars, indeed I'm now being invited to other peoples dojos to share my stuff, so I must be doing something right. All that said my videos don't receive much feedback. I've decided I'm ok with that, and that I will still share the occasional piece of application practice - and that would be my advice to you. Don't be disheartened with what seems to be a lack of interest. I was also invited to teach at this years Bunkai Bash (unfortunately I couldn't make it) and I've already been invited to teach at next years. That definitely wouldn't have happened had I not shared some recordings. If you (or anybody else) thinks what you have is good stuff them share it, and don't concern yourself with no comments, or some possible dislikes. Remember, the membership on this forum are not the last word in kata application, and you're ideas are no less valid. Regards Mark

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

We can say there are broadly three types of user of this forum:

1) Posters / Thread Starters – Who are the minority

2) Commentators

3) Readers – Who are the vast majority

If you take this thread as an example, we have 1 Poster (as always), 3 Commentators, and (as the time of writing) 923 readers. You can find the number of readers at the foot of each initial post.

Oerjan Nilsen wrote:
As it is today the best you can get is no response at all. If you do not believe me you van just read through the last few discussions here. I'm sure you'll see what I mean. That being said: thank you so much for sharing this, I really enjoyed it.

I’d not confuse comments with responses. People are reading these threads, so there is some interest there in the Korean forms. And to be honest I don’t want 923 comments along the line of “liked it”.  If you look at other threads in the Korean Form section you can see they are getting lots of views:

Jumping in Patterns - 6,988

Are there applications in Korean derived forms? (a thread you started) - 9,073

Taekwondo patterns - 14,832

Applications from the Kukki TKD forms (another of yours) - 3,754

So there is interest from readers. We could definitely do with more Posters / Thread Starters in the Korean Forms Section because then the potential commenters have something to comment on (if they wish), and the readers have more to read.

It’s also fair to say that, here at least, the karate / self-defence threads get more traction. Although in our case that may have something to do with the fact that we have “the practical application of karate” on the top. Therefore, we may be considered as a “karate forum” which would have Korean folks posting elsewhere? The threads are certainly being viewed though.

Mark B wrote:
If you (or anybody else) thinks what you have is good stuff them share it, and don't concern yourself with no comments, or some possible dislikes. Remember, the membership on this forum are not the last word in kata application, and you're ideas are no less valid.

I think you got a bit muddled there Mark. The original post was by Andy Scriven, and the comment on low comments was by Oerjan Nilsen.

Andy’s post has had a lot of “reads” here, and the video has had 984 views on YouTube, 18 likes and no dislikes. It’s a successful video. I don’t think a lack of comments can be taken as a negative thing (that’s certainly not something Andy has expressed) or as a slight from the membership this forum.

Views and comments vary on all kinds of things. There is certainly no obligation on people to make comments. And I’d caution against seeing a lack of comments as a slight (you may remember we had a similar discussion in May).

As examples, my thread on wrist locks on the ground has only had 531 views and no comments. Although my one on cultural changes in the dojo (posted the same week) has 11,749 views and 26 comments. I don’t take the lack of interest in the wrist-lock one to be a slight or a reflection on the negativity of the forum. It’s just that the second topic is obviously more interesting to people.

I think that, on the whole, we are a very supportive and encouraging bunch. It’s the topic that tends to determine if people feel the need to actively partake, just sit back and watch, or scroll on to a topic they find more interesting.

In you case, we can see that the recent thread on your videos on Aragaki Seisan has had no comments and 403 reads. The one posted the day after by Noah on Kusanku Sho Bunkai has had 2215 reads and 4 comments. Of course, in the case of YouTube videos, this forum is just a “postal”.

So if we look at the YouTube statistics your videos have had 88 views + 2 likes, and 71 views + 1 like. Noah’s video has 1,361 views + 63 likes. What I would read into that is that Kusanku Sho is a much more widely practised kata. Aragaki Seisan, by contrast, is not a widely practised kata; so it logically follows there will be less interest in it. It’s nothing personal or reflective of the forum of a whole.

Mark B wrote:
I'm not sure why videos get very little in the way of response

They don’t. The figures show they get lots of response generally; but not every topic is of interest to everyone to the same degree.

It also does not follow that a quiet repose is effectively a show of disrespect / distain from other members. That’s not it at all.

Mark B wrote:
Remember, the membership on this forum are not the last word in kata application, and you're ideas are no less valid.

No one is saying we are. There’s also no need to give Andy a “pep talk” on the assumption there has been some negativity expressed towards him. That’s not happened. No one has said anything negative and the video has had lots of reads, views and likes overall. I’m sure Andy has not taken offense that people have not commented (aside from myself initially). I’m also sure he does not feel the forum are rubbishing his work. 923 reads, 984 views, 18 likes, and no dislikes for a form with minority appeal is an impressive set of stats.

All the best,

Iain

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi Iain I think I did possibly get a bit confused there. My main point was if you've got something you think is worth sharing then don't be perturbed just because you think it might not generate much interest, or if it does get interest that interest may not necessarily be favourable. I do think it's human nature to worry about such things, and to crave "acceptance". The point regarding this particular forum was to say that if anybody on this group didn't much care for a given presentation that doesn't mean that the presentation is not worthy, the opinion of this (or any other public or private group on social media) doesn't constitute a 'litmus test". I take your point regarding kata which are more widely practiced, it's a very sensible observation. I've got another couple of Aragaki Seisan to share so I'll put them up there, :-) Also, I wasn't giving anybody a pep talk. I was simply sharing my thoughts on this issue. Regards

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark B wrote:
My main point was if you've got something you think is worth sharing then don't be perturbed just because you think it might not generate much interest …

I agree. It also depends upon how you measure things. Views vs Comments, etc. You can also put out a video that may totally change the way one group does things, but gets comparatively little views. I’d prefer that to one that had thousands of views but resulted in no “on the ground” change.

Mark B wrote:
The point regarding this particular forum was to say that if anybody on this group didn't much care for a given presentation that doesn't mean that the presentation is not worthy, the opinion of this (or any other public or private group on social media) doesn't constitute a 'litmus test".

Any given group or forum is unlikely to be indicative of the whole; so I’d totally agree. However, the great thing about the “information age” is that all of us can access the world easily. When I started writing in the 1990s the only way you could reach any kind of audience was through the magazines; and that was obviously limited by geography (UK magazines are generally not for sale in the USA, etc).

These days, we call all access everywhere with ease and no restriction. The “market place of ideas” sees certain things develop a higher profile, and others sink without trace. On a long enough curve, and with plenty of consistency and momentum, the good ideas tend to “float” in the end. Failure to get traction in any given single location or medium does not indicate how things will go overall. So I’d also caution against assuming failure or disinterest if any given group does not like something.  

However, in this specific case, no one has said they dislike Andy’s video. The stats would also suggest they do like it.  So while I don’t question what you said, I would question the assumption on which you said it.

Mark B wrote:
I've got another couple of Aragaki Seisan to share so I'll put them up there, :-)

I look forward to seeing them. It’s also worth mentioning that when I type “Aragaki Seisan bunkai” into Google, of the ten posts on the first page, four of them are your videos and one is a link to forum post you started here. So 50% of what Google throws up is yours. Irrespective of forum comments on any given thread, it shows that the fact you have shared your thoughts has established you as “the go to guy for Aragaki Seisan” :-) The system works.

All the best,

Iain

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi Iain Your comments versus views is a very good point, which I have tended to overlook. I think I just felt Oerjans frustration at the feeling of hitting a brick wall, which is why I mentioned my seminars etc. Sharing videos is something I enjoy doing and sharing stuff on this forum definitely directly resulted in Andi Kidd sending me a lovely email right out of the blue regarding his Bunkai Bash - my point being that no share equals no email, so sharing had a direct positive outcome - even though the clip ( Chinto I think) only received a comment from Andi himself. I take your point regarding placing too much importance on receiving comments though. I appreciate the comment regarding a Google search for Aragaki Seisan. I wasn't aware that that was the case. That's pretty cool :-) Regards

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Oerjan Nilsen wrote:

Iain Abernethy wrote:

It would be great if the Korean forms section was active, particularly with regards to the forms that are uniquely Koran and have no Japanese or Okinawan equivalents.

I believe the main reason people don't post on the Korean forms is not because people are not researching them (and finding interesting applications) but becauseof how they are generally met when they present them. The attitude seems to be that the Koreans know nothing so any applications from their forms are free imagination. I do not agree with this, but when you meet a brick wall of this attitude you stop posting. At least I did. If people genuinely wants to see more posts on the Korean forms the attitude towards those posting should be applauded. As it is today the best you can get is no response at all. If you do not believe me you van just read through the last few discussions here. I'm sure you'll see what I mean. That being said: thank you so much for sharing this, I really enjoyed it. I do not practice this form myself, but I recently learned another form with a similar technique sequence. I'll see if this fits in within that form. Thank you, and I do hope to see more of your material in the future:-)

Hi Oerjan

I am not sure I agree with your analysis... The jumping in forms thread is a good case in point. There were a whole bunch of us who responded and discussed the topic, the majority of whom were not Korean stylists...?

Please don't stop posting, personally I do like to analyse and debate with "Korean" karate stylists.. Invarably it brings out different points of discussion and perspectives than I'd get with the usual "Japanese" karate mob.

Cheers

Tom

gerasimos
gerasimos's picture

I think Oerjan's comment has been misinterpreted and speaks to a tangentially related issue about the construction of and "Boonhae" of Korean Forms.

There exists a belief, in what is perceived to be the general majority of martial art stylists, that Tae Kwon Do's forms (regardless of orginizational syllabus) that were created as a result of the influence of forms and singular techniques from Tae Kwon Do's parental lineage, were a collection of miunderstood techniques with no true sequential relation.

The consequence of the aforementioned perception is that when a Taekwondoin (or any other martial artist) attempts to Analyze a Tae Kwon Do form and construct sequences of applications from it, they are generally ridiculed and told that there is no true meaning to what they are doing, even if what they constructed would be considered correct within the guidelines of Karate Bunkai.

I believe that Oerjan was expressing his frustrations with the perception of others (even within Tae Kwon Do) when it comes to Tae Kwon Do's Forms Application and was simply glad someone posted something positive towards this end.

Cheers,

- Gerasimos

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

gerasimos wrote:
There exists a belief, in what is perceived to be the general majority of martial art stylists, that Tae Kwon Do's forms (regardless of orginizational syllabus) that were created as a result of the influence of forms and singular techniques from Tae Kwon Do's parental lineage, were a collection of miunderstood techniques with no true sequential relation.

Firstly I don't think, as a general statement, that this position is an unfair one..

DaveB posted an interesting article on an earlier thread that goes into graphic detail about the history and heritage of TKD and TSD forms. http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=14...

That being said, it is not a situation that is a million miles away from where The Japanese karate stylists find themselves.

Irrespective of the "karate style" an individual's capability to apply critical thinking to the analysis of applications etc and question traditional dogma is far more important. TKD/TSD stylists just have a slightly larger hill to climb, given the position they have to start from.

Just makes it all the more satisfying when progress is achieved :-)

Azato
Azato's picture

I can't speak for TKD hyungs, but coming from a TSD Moo Duk Kwan lineage I have always been told that the Hwangs never did any close range/grappling application work. Now thats not to suggest that such applications cannot be found especially considering that many of the movements found in the Chil Sung's are from Tai Chi (including the movement featured above). I would tend to agree, however, that Hwang Kee didn't have such applications in mind while creating the forms. If he did he didn't teach them. The Chil Sungs are not ancient material, their creator passed only in 2002. Any current Moo Duk Kwan members on here that can shed light on this?

Anf
Anf's picture

Oerjan Nilsen wrote:
I believe the main reason people don't post on the Korean forms is not because people are not researching them (and finding interesting applications) but becauseof how they are generally met when they present them. The attitude seems to be that the Koreans know nothing so any applications from their forms are free imagination. I do not agree with this, but when you meet a brick wall of this attitude you stop posting. At least I did. If people genuinely wants to see more posts on the Korean forms the attitude towards those posting should be applauded. As it is today the best you can get is no response at all. If you do not believe me you van just read through the last few discussions here. I'm sure you'll see what I mean. That being said: thank you so much for sharing this, I really enjoyed it. I do not practice this form myself, but I recently learned another form with a similar technique sequence. I'll see if this fits in within that form. Thank you, and I do hope to see more of your material in the future:-)

I have a theory on the point about public perception being that the 'Koreans know nothing'. This is just my theory. I haven't researched it, and have no evidence to support it. But here goes. First of all, there's no feasible way the Koreans could know nothing. Korea is kind of sandwiched between China and Japan, and historically had a lot of connections with both. Korea itself was once divided and had many internal conflicts. There's no way they didn't learn a thing or two about martial arts. The problem of course is that the Japanese occupied Korea for nearly half a century, until just after the second world war. In that time they made a solid effort to eradicate korean culture. Some see Korea's apparent plagiarism of karate as evidence of japan's success, but I think it's probably much more likely that while of course they took what they liked from karate, they also took from other systems, including their own, which in turn likely influenced karate and other styles historically. We should remember that karate wasn't always called karate, and is itself made up of many styles from the wider region. So why did the Koreans take so many forms from karate? Probably because they are good forms. They're a good teaching tool. Some of karate's kata are derived from Chinese forms anyway so it's not exclusively from karate. So all that said, why then might their be a perception that the Koreans know nothing? Could it simply be a relic of the politics of a couple of generations ago? Japan tried to eradicate korean culture during the occupation. Perhaps they failed, but at the same time perhaps their propaganda kind of stuck.