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Eddie J
Eddie J's picture
Stop drinking the kool aid.

I have a problem with an instructor that has caused some severe problems with my family.  I restart back into karate 2 1/2 years ago.  I was able to find an instructor that had a background in military self defense as well as Okinawa style karate and kobudo.  Since i wanted to get back into martial arts for self defense he seemed like the right guy.  Now I am a green belt, one stipe away from my brown belt.  My son and wife are now brown belts.  We are all award winning karate-ka in sport kumita, weapons and open hand kata.  But we do no bunkai or self defence to speak of.  "We do not have the basics yet" In the beginning I was told how great this style was for fighting and how the masters were the first to use bogu gear so that no one gets hurt during all the sparring.  My wife loves the kata part of it all.  But the son and I know that we still do not know enough to be confident in a self defense application. The instructer and I had a talk about this issue.   I understood him to imply that when we got our 3rd black belt that we could start learning the lethal technique of the kata and bunkai. I told him that I thought this was unexceptable. He suggested that I go to other dojos to see how they operate.  I went to a Krav Maga instructor.  While there I saw what I thought was a good type of class for what I was looking for.  The instructor was also a 6th Black belt in Okinawa style.  He was able to show me the similarity between the KM and our kata.  And what an advantage we have with the kata and basic techniques.  In one 2 hour class I was able to see and experiance more self defence work then I saw in 2 years before.  I am going to start taking KM and continue to do kata for all the good I see in kata. Is this the normal way to teach? What do I do with the family that only see how much they like the instructor and not the lacking of the class.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

There really is no "normal way to teach" when it comes to karate, because every instructor is going to do things differently. I've come across some very knowledgeable karate instructors, who know very effective kata applications, but only teach them to black belts. In that regard, what you describe isn't something unheard of, although I would say the most common limitation on learning kata application is making people wait until shodan, not sandan. Supposedly, the idea is that you have to develop your basics and control enough to correctly do the techniques without injuring yourself or your partner, and that you need to have enough kata to study. Sometimes, though, I think people just hide their lack of knowledge behind these kinds of excuses. Not always, of course, but sometimes.

Kevin73
Kevin73's picture

Agree with Wastelander.  Each teacher/school does their own thing.  If you enjoy learning the art and want to continue, then nothing is wrong with what I call "cross referencing" with other sources.  From my experience both American Kenpo and Krav Maga are good at seeing "bunkai" from movements found in katas to what application possibilities might be.

Eddie J
Eddie J's picture

I have been to two KM classes now.  I think I am the only Karate-ka in the class. The instructer will make a point to show the kata that goes along with the KN movements.  It is quite a bit more up close and personable then the karate i was taking.  I think I was exposed to more self defense apps tonight then i was in the last 2 years.  I can see how the kata will help me in KM.

css1971
css1971's picture

Eddie J wrote:

He was able to show me the similarity between the KM and our kata.  And what an advantage we have with the kata and basic techniques.  In one 2 hour class I was able to see and experiance more self defence work then I saw in 2 years before.  I am going to start taking KM and continue to do kata for all the good I see in kata. Is this the normal way to teach? What do I do with the family that only see how much they like the instructor and not the lacking of the class.

It's a situation I went through also a number of years back, and to be honest, for most people out there, karate is a bad choice for anyone looking for self defence. That isn't to say karate is a bad martial art, but the vast majority of dojos you find will not teach effective/practical karate to you in a reasonable timeframe, most, never. People like Iain are sadly still a very small, (though growing) minority, and you have to understand that there is a problem, then understand what the problem is in order to find the good teachers, and that takes years. Beginners just are not going to be able to make that distinction.

It is an enormous problem in karate, kung-fu and tae kwon do also. All based on Chinese martial arts which use kata/forms.

Simple fact as far as I can tell is that karate/kung-fu/taekwondo training is approximately backwards. You should learn the methods first, then once you understand them, you learn the kata as a memorisation tool. Well since nobody recorded the applications, the result is that everyone has to perform analysis of the kata in order to reverse engineer the applications... Which is enormously wasteful in terms of time if your teachers even do that analysis or know the applications. Of course the kata/forms have been analysed and understood in the past but there is a huge culture of secrecy within the Chinese derived arts. If you look at the videos still published today by the Shaolin temple, they still teach fake applications for their forms today.

These days I direct complete beginners who ask, knowing I practise it, away from karate and other chinese derived martial arts for the reasons above. Most would be better off with Ju-Jitsu probably (or Krav Maga). Alternatively if you're in the UK maybe there are some good clubs in the British Combat Association directory near where you live.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

css1971 wrote:
It's a situation I went through also a number of years back, and to be honest, for most people out there, karate is a bad choice for anyone looking for self defence. That isn't to say karate is a bad martial art, but the vast majority of dojos you find will not teach effective/practical karate to you in a reasonable timeframe, most, never. People like Iain are sadly still a very small, (though growing) minority, and you have to understand that there is a problem, then understand what the problem is in order to find the good teachers, and that takes years. Beginners just are not going to be able to make that distinction …

... Most would be better off with Ju-Jitsu probably (or Krav Maga). Alternatively if you're in the UK maybe there are some good clubs in the British Combat Association directory near where you live.

Unsurprisingly, I don’t agree :-) I’ve seen some terrible Krav clubs and some terrible Jujutsu clubs too. Under those labels, there is some very good groups, but there is also groups who teach military, archaic and sport systems as self-protection, and who fundamentally fail to see the difference.

As good as Krav can be, I’ve also seen Krav local groups where the instructors have around 6 months experience and give terrible advice practically and technically. This very week I had a female Krav instructor recommend to a women’s self-defence class that they should keep attacking until the attacker was incapacitated, even if there was the opportunity to escape and create distance. That is terrible, life-endangering advice … and I know of loads of Krav teachers who would agree with me. Just as in karate, the good Krav teachers have to share the label with the bad ones.

Within karate I can think of loads of people I would recommend, and loads who I would steer people away from. Some who teach highly effective stuff, and some who teach nothing but "defending" against static lunch punches.

Like every system, there is the good and the bad in all and we need to look at each individual case objectively.

An uneducated beginner is going to face problems no matter which art they opt for. The key is to provide the education so people can make an informed choice. The style has very little to do with it and it has far more to do with how it is taught, what the objective is, how educated the instructor is, and the instructor’s teaching skills. Until the individual student has ascertained the aforementioned qualities from the individual group, it’s a case of caveat emptor.

Think of any art you can, and I know of groups and individuals I would highly recommend, and groups and individuals I would strongly caution against. Each case needs to be approached on an individual basis if you are not to waste time and money learning nonsense.

All the best,

Iain

Ian H
Ian H's picture

Eddie J wrote:

I have a problem with an instructor that has caused some severe problems with my family. 

... I am going to start taking KM and continue to do kata for all the good I see in kata. Is this the normal way to teach? What do I do with the family that only see how much they like the instructor and not the lacking of the class.

So, as I understand Eddie's problem, it's not that his karate instructor is not teaching self defence, but more that he wants to switch over to the Krav Maga instructor he has found, but the rest of his family wants to stay with karate.  Perhaps there's a "let's do something as a family" aspect that he doesn't want to upset.  Perhaps him leaving the karate dojo will leave his family "on the outs" with the sensei there, tarred with the same brush as it were.  

So, Eddie ... does time and money allow you to continue to do both?  I've had dojomates who have also trained in other martial arts (Judo, MMA) on other nights of the week.  Could you do the same?  It seems like there is a lot of good stuff at your karate dojo, just no "practical self defence bunkai" aspect, so that might be worth keeping, just add in the self defence on alternating evenings.  Or alternatively would your wife be interested in Krav Maga?  

css1971
css1971's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Until the individual student has ascertained the aforementioned qualities from the individual group, it’s a case of caveat emptor.

Think of any art you can, and I know of groups and individuals I would highly recommend, and groups and individuals I would strongly caution against. Each case needs to be approached on an individual basis if you are not to waste time and money learning nonsense.

All clubs and individual teachers (ju-jitsu / Krav Maga etc) vary in quality obviously, but even there at least the instructors generally know the physical techniques they are teaching, in karate even that often isn't the case. The rest of your post I'm pretty much in agreement with.

It's is a huge quality problem in the (all) martial arts generally. A beginner by definition can't know what effective self defense looks like, they are not competent to make that determination and it literally takes years before they can begin to appreciate the difference between sport and street, as you pointed out yourself even experienced martial artists very often don't understand the difference in context. Today, the overwhelming majority of your average people think BJJ is what works, because that's what's effective in UFC.

Iain Abernethy wrote:
The key is to provide the education so people can make an informed choice.

Unfortunately this doesn't really happen at the moment outside of a club context, certainly not for beginners, it's far more likely they will see something like WKF kumite or UFC MMA and choose based on spinning high kicks which look like something out of the movies.

OTOH I'm rather hopeful that the WCA will encourage like minded teachers to gather together and provide a sane starting point.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
The key is to provide the education so people can make an informed choice.

css1971 wrote:
Unfortunately this doesn't really happen at the moment outside of a club context, certainly not for beginners, it's far more likely they will see something like WKF kumite or UFC MMA and choose based on spinning high kicks which look like something out of the movies.

It true that people who only get their information from the club they train in are unlikely to get an alternative perspective. However, the great thing about living in the “information age” in that people are only ever a few taps on a keyboard / screen from that alternative viewpoint. We can all help contribute to that … and I would suggest that even this thread is helping (531 reads at the time of typing).

It’s pretty much a daily occurrence for me to get emails from people who want pointers on what to look for when they begin training off the back of this website. The web works :-)

All the best,

Iain

Spaniard
Spaniard's picture

Eddie-

  If time, resources or travel don't allow for it, this forum, Iain's videos and other poster's vids (Wastelander) will give you a good starting point until you can make a jump.  You already have a desire for a more pragmatic approach, so keeping that approach in mind as you work on basics in your present class may take you far.

  Also, depending on your wife and son's willingness- and your son's age- grabbing them or recruiting a Krav Maga'er for a partner would be a good idea.  (Ideas w/o application is like a car w/o a license!)

Hope it all works out!

Erik P./Spaniard

OnlySeisan
OnlySeisan's picture

Honestly, this is why I don't train at a dojo anymore. I feel that more harm than good is done by waiting until shodan (or any dan rank) to teach a karate ka application. I heard a saying that basically sums up the reason why I don't like this.

"No information = make stuff up."

If a person trains for years without an instructor ever teaching them the techniques in kata than they just make stuff up, which they then have to unlearn once said instructor decides to start teaching application.

As far as your issue goes, is there any reason why your family can't train together at home? They could even teach you the kata they are learning as long as you're okay with not having a rank, and you can still train in KM and still have family time.