18 posts / 0 new
Last post
Tau
Tau's picture
Juji Gatame

Iain teaches this as a standalone technique and also as part of Empi bunkai. We covered it this past weekend and I received an e-mail thanking me for my help in understanding this technique. So I thought to create a video for others to benefit from:

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Tau wrote:
Iain teaches this as a standalone technique and also as part of Empi bunkai

To clarify, it is one of the “fighting techniques” we teach in my dojo, and it is possible to link it to Enpi / Wanshu bunkai … but I don’t actually formally teach it as Wanshu bunkai in my dojo. Part of the reason being that Wanshu is an optional kata for 3rd dans and above and hence we have no set drills for the kata because at that level people are expected to create such drills as proof they are ready to advance. We also want people to learn the technique long before 3rd dan :-) It’s taught in the kyu grades from both top and bottom and the primary source for all that comes from judo (a significant proportion of our senior grades have also studied judo).

All the best,

Iain

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

Specifically Ude-Hishigi-Juji-Gatame 腕挫十字固.  Because there are other Juji-Gatame that are not this technique.

Nice video.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Juji-gatame is a great technique, when used appropriately! I learned it in judo, as well, and it's my highest-percentage submission in grappling--honestly, I need to go for it less often :P.

Tau
Tau's picture

There is a certain satisfaction to gaining a submission with Juji, isn't there? It's probably most people's favourite.

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

Evidently most people are not aware there is a counter to it.

mike23
mike23's picture

"a"? you mean "counters"

:-)

Tau
Tau's picture

And indeed counters to counters.

I emphasise that this was an introduction, intended for those not familiar with the lock. I could have gone into greater depth, greater technique refinement and more entries and from more diverse positions.

I'm finding that actually this lock is getting used less because the counters are so well known. That said, it's a great lock to study because the principles are of it are well transferred.

mike23
mike23's picture

I agree. when the opponent is still strong they can resist for quite a while.Also from the top position you have to leave the strong mount position to achieve the arm bar and if you don't succeed you are in a bad position.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

One of the most interesting Judo lessons I have had was where my coach took us through the “original” technique as performed by Kano through the full development to how it is used today. We did all versions, as he discussed the counter used and who developed it, how the counter to the counter was developed and who developed that, and so on. It was interesting to see the “arms race” through the decades as the lock evolved through Judo competition.

In a judo context, we regularly practised moving to a hold down from a “sitting pre-juji postion” should your opponent be able to kill the attempt to straighten the arm. Not good for other environments, but the failure to get the lock can still leave you in a strong position within a judo context.

Juji-gatame is very much a “fighting technique” as opposed to a “self-protection technique” I feel.

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
Juji-gatame is very much a “fighting technique” as opposed to a “self-protection technique” I feel.

Replace your Sangaku Jime with Juji Gatame and the photo' remains completely accurate (no point creating another photo'!)

Granted it's not practical, but it's hellish fun and satisfying to pull off in class.

Iain Abernethy wrote:
One of the most interesting Judo lessons I have had was where my coach took us through the “original” technique as performed by Kano through the full development to how it is used today. We did all versions, as he discussed the counter used and who developed it, how the counter to the counter was developed and who developed that, and so on. It was interesting to see the “arms race” through the decades as the lock evolved through Judo competition.

That would be fascinating. Along the same lines, Kesa Gatame is becoming popular (in BJJ again.) My understanding is that it was so widely practiced that everyone* learned the counter so it became pointless to learn. Because no-one* learns it, no-one* has the counter anyway. And so it's become effective again.

* Accepted that "no-one" / "everyone" is of course an exageration.

sarflondonboydo...
sarflondonboydonewell's picture

hanks for posting the video;  the 2 coaching tips I always give when teaching this (I agree with Ian good fighting technique but not a good personal protection technique).  

  1. Ensure the opponents thumb is pointed upwards when brings the joint into the lock position (thumbs up!!)
  2. Squeeze the legs together at the knees to keep the arm straight and allow less wriggle room for the arm(some say this also can prevent some counters but I have an open mind on that).

The ‘classic’ way is to have the left leg over the neck and the right leg bent with the foot under the opponents body to prevent him rolling into you( giving one I think slightly more pressure when squeezing the legs together) However I think most people who teach it do the modern style with both legs over as per the video or pillow and or sangaku

I recommend the great Neil Adams book ‘armlocks’ by Ippon in the Judo Masterclass series.

Tau
Tau's picture

sarflondonboydonewell wrote:
I recommend the great Neil Adams book ‘armlocks’ by Ippon in the Judo Masterclass series.

So do I. The only caveat is that that book is now years old and the technique has been refined lots since and indeed needs to be applied differently for different contexts. Whereas Judo is now limiting time available to secure submissions, for non-Judo there is often the time allowed to find different ways into it and to use it as part of the "chess game."

I completely agree with your coaching points. This video was deliberately kept simple for those training with Iain that aren't routinely practicing grappling arts and aren't familiar with the lock. I certainly wouldn't have put it on YouTube otherwise as there are MANY videos on it going into much greater depth that I have, and taught by much greater grapplers than I (not difficult!)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

sarflondonboydonewell wrote:
The ‘classic’ way is to have the left leg over the neck and the right leg bent with the foot under the opponents body to prevent him rolling into you … However I think most people who teach it do the modern style with both legs over

The trouble with the classical way (which is the way Kano shows it) is that it is relatively easy to use the free arm to push the leg on the neck over the head and then start to sit up. The crossed-leg version prevents that, particularly if the leg above the arm is hooked under the leg below the arm. It’s because of that counter, that the earlier technique is rarely seen these days. The “martial nerd” in me does find these evolutions fasinating!

sarflondonboydonewell wrote:
I recommend the great Neil Adams book ‘armlocks’ by Ippon in the Judo Masterclass series.

Seconded! Brilliant book from one of the great masters of this technique … as this old competition footage shows:

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Some more footage of the master in action along with breakdown of the technique. The commentary is in German, but it’s easy to follow regardless of whether you speak German or not.

Both of these techniques are a standard part of Juju-Gatame basics at the Judo club I trained at.

All the best,

Iain

Mikeseishin-do
Mikeseishin-do's picture

I love using Juji Gatame. I find it very satisying and easy to apply particularly in any Goshin Waza sequence. 

One way I have  of increasing the effectiveness (and by effectiveness I mean how much tensile force it puts on the joint) of Juji Gatame is to ensure thatthe foot closest to the head end, its heel is placed as close to the jaw as possible, and then the other leg sits nearer the armpit. I find this works increadibly well.

I think personally its an excellent technique, really easy to grasp and encorporate into your work. Thanks for the videos guys really helpful too :).

mike23
mike23's picture

One of the problems with the arm bar is that you have to leave the strong mount to achieve the arm. If you miss the arm you're not in mount anymore

Tau
Tau's picture

mike23 wrote:
One of the problems with the arm bar is that you have to leave the strong mount to achieve the arm. If you miss the arm you're not in mount anymore

Interesting how different people have different perspectives and how things evolve.

Up until this year I've only dabbled in BJJ, primarily training in seminar with Rosi Sexton. She, and others, have emphasised moving through superior positions, ultimately to mount and then secure submission (or G'n'P whichever the context allows.) She, and others that I've trained with, know far more than I and I bow down to their experience.

However, this year I've begun training in BJJ regularly. The gym' that I train in have de-emphasised the use of the mount. Much as I said about Kesa Gatama and evolution they feel that now everyone knows the counters to being mounted. Also they feel that your options are limited. Instead they prefer use of side control, feeling that there is much more control and more options available. They would encourage leaving mount. And you can still achieve juji-gatame from side control.

In both cases I feel it's down to preferences and strategy. Neither are necessarily wrong.

Looking at Neil Adams' video on Juji, that is is a master at work, there is no doubt about that. I've never trained with Mr Adams but gladly would if the opportunity should present. However that video is the point I made earlier. It is years old and that method is no longer applicable to Judo in the current rules.

Again, continual evolution.