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bowlie
bowlie's picture
The guard in self defense

In boxing we are taught the importance of a good, tight guard. I see alot of self defense experts not really bother with it. For example, they will use the fence to try and disarm the situation and if it breaks down unleash a world of hurt very quickly. In karate there is no guard, instead focusing on jamming shots and getting in close. Having your guard up I guess means your being defensive, and therefore on the backfoot. While in a ring you can sit back, take shots on the gloves and counter punch those things wont work in a street fight so you either need to APPEAR (not be) passive, as in using the fence, or being aggressive so that you can use momentum to carry the advantage of the pre-emptive strike if possible.

I find the guard in mma and the especially that used by early MMA fighters and BJJ specialists very interesting. They have their arms extended more, like bareknuckle boxers (look at gypsy fights) so that they can intercept punches on their way in and clinch up. that said, there must be a use for it? right?

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi bowlie,

the important thing is in my opinion to controll the distance/space between you and your opponent.

The fence is very good for self protection because it is no obvious agressive thing. A boxing guard is not a good option. Getting punched on the guard/fists while they are unprotected and near the face will only result in a pretty ugly face deformation. There is a reason for bare knuckle boxers to hold their guard the way they are holding it. The MMA guard falls into the same category like the boxing guard and is not suited for self protection in my eyes.

The next thing is you don't want to give away the initiative when its getting physical. So you should not be passive, waiting for punches so no guard is needed anyway.

Regards Holger

bowlie
bowlie's picture

ky0han wrote:

Hi bowlie,

the important thing is in my opinion to controll the distance/space between you and your opponent.

The fence is very good for self protection because it is no obvious agressive thing. A boxing guard is not a good option. Getting punched on the guard/fists while they are unprotected and near the face will only result in a pretty ugly face deformation. There is a reason for bare knuckle boxers to hold their guard the way they are holding it. The MMA guard falls into the same category like the boxing guard and is not suited for self protection in my eyes.

The next thing is you don't want to give away the initiative when its getting physical. So you should not be passive, waiting for punches so no guard is needed anyway.

Regards Holger

Yeah similar to what I was thinking. The problem is, this encourages you to get close, instead of striking from range in my eyes. Would you ever teach a guard in a self defense class? What about a fighting class geared towards self defense? Like if you did something like kudo or a kata based sparring session?

On a related note, Iain I would love it if you could upload some kata based sparring from your dojo

Leigh Simms
Leigh Simms's picture

When you have the distance to begin with having the arms up and out in front is a great idea to manage the distance and keep yourself away from the opponent.

The bigger the gloves the closer the guard can be as it protects a bigger area, so boxing gloves are best used close to the head generally and little gloves should be kept further away.

I don't teach a guard for self-defence because there isn't use for it. If you get the chance to manage the distance you should do so in a non-aggressive manner, from there you are either hitting the opponent or fighting your way back into the fight (where protecting your head in a keysi style maybe of use).

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi,

I don't teach any guards in self protection, because as I mentioned above I see no need for that. As Leigh wrote it is important to protect the head so I teach methods to protect it, but that is no guard you hold up all the time waiting for impact. Also important is the distance management. When you have the distance to escape you should take that option. So when I am 10 feet away from the opponent I wouldn't prepare for battle I would run as fast as I can.

As mentioned above the fence is a superb method for distance controlling. When the opponent is closing in you can either push him back or jump him with a preemptive strike and then escape.

There is a major difference between self defense and fighting. In self defense only the perpetrator wants to get into an altercation. A fight is consensual. So when you are willing to step out of a bar with another one to get it on, it is no longer a self defense situation in my eyes.

Regards Holger

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Leigh Simms wrote:
I don't teach a guard for self-defence because there isn't use for it.

ky0han wrote:
I don't teach any guards in self protection, because as I mentioned above I see no need for that. As Leigh wrote it is important to protect the head so I teach methods to protect it, but that is no guard you hold up all the time waiting for impact.

I’m also of this view. A guard is applicable in consensual fights. In self-protection you are so close that both hands should be working, or you are far enough apart that you should be escaping. There is no “closing distance” or “back and forth” so the place where are a guard is needed in a fight does not really exist in self-protection.

Here is an article I wrote eight years ago on the “karate guard” and why there is no such thing in kata and why it is not an applicable method when it comes to self-protection:  

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/use-karate-guard-kata-and-combat

That article covers much of what as already been discussed.

ky0han wrote:
There is a major difference between self defense and fighting. In self defense only the perpetrator wants to get into an altercation. A fight is consensual. So when you are willing to step out of a bar with another one to get it on, it is no longer a self defense situation in my eyes.

Very true. It’s also no longer legal. Self-defence is legal. “Street fighting” is not. It’s been said many times here, but most people do not appreciate the tactical and legal differences and teach “street fighting” as being one and the same as self-protection / self-defence.  The result is that students are not well prepared for self-protection.

In this video I quickly explain what the non-striking hand’s primary role is in kata. We have no “guards” in kata because it is not relevant to civilian self-protection. I also contrast self-protection and fighting and discuss guards in both contexts.

All the best,

Iain

bowlie
bowlie's picture

That was the first video of yours I saw Iain, and it converted me instantly :p Do you ever use a guard in kata based sparring?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

bowlie wrote:
Do you ever use a guard in kata based sparring?

We do use guards in sparring when we are practising fighting skills, but the live close-range self-defence drills (the kata based stuff) need the hands to be actively clearing a path, controlling or locating the enemy. People can try to use a guard if they want, but they quickly find it is not a good idea. Leaving a hand inactive like that causes problems. Active covering can be useful, but passive “just in case” guards are not applicable.

All the best,

Iain

Michael Rust
Michael Rust's picture

Here is a good article on guards in martial arts. I agree with a lot of it. I did have to mention the idea of no guard at all in reality based self defence situations.

http://pacificwavejiujitsu.com/blog/how-to-hold-your-hands-in-guard/

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

I have learned and played with "guards" as a sort of method of trying to ensure you try to direct  what is used against you by "inviting" likely responses..it was not in the context of a sport guard though...and i'd say it's sort of ancillary/"advanced" subject matter if I comprehended it right.