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PASmith
PASmith's picture
Elbow and Knee padwork

I've just watched the great youtube clip of Iain showing an elbow and knee combination on a partner, pads and in kihon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCQnW1zSlL4

Love the point about recognising flaws in each drill and making up for them by doing additonal drills without those flaws. "Triangulating" the result you are after from multiple directions.

BUT...I couldn't help wondering if the deficiencies in the padwork drill couldn't in some ways be mitigated by using the Thai pad holder set-up rather than just focus mitts?

Having a partner with two Thai pads and a belly pad would mean you wouldn't need to use two pads per elbow (Thai pads have more mass than focus mitts so don't necessarily need double bracing in the same way) while the belly pad would provide a place to impact the knee (not the groin but near enough) without needing to get both hands down to it (and just using one pad per elbow would mean you had a pad free to move down to augment the belly pad quickly anyway).

Thai pads aren't generally as quick to move and position as focus mitts so they aren't without their flaws but I felt in this sort of drill they'd be a real bonus.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

I’m pleased you like it!

PASmith wrote:
I couldn't help wondering if the deficiencies in the padwork drill couldn't in some ways be mitigated by using the Thai pad holder set-up rather than just focus mitts?

They have some advantages, but some disadvantages too. You’ve covered the advantages, but the disadvantages are they are much bigger and throw the distancing off i.e. two thai pads held like that give a “head” that is around two or three times the size of a real head. That effectively messes up the flow too, but in another way i.e. the flow of the technique needs to be compromised in order to take the increased size into account.

As the accompanying text to the video states the pros and cons of each type of drill:

https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/training-matrix-elbowing-and-knee-combination

We could expand this to look at all the differing types of impact equipment, but all of them have some pros and some cons.

We got the flow from the kihon and partner drills, and we got impact from the focus mitts which was lacking in those two forms of training. If we’d switched in thai pads, we could have flowed a little faster (albeit in a compromised way), but we’d have introduced an unrealistic distancing which would still need correcting by the partner drill.

PASmith wrote:
just using one pad per elbow would mean you had a pad free to move down to augment the belly pad quickly anyway

I think that could be an issue as the second elbow would see the forearm cross both pads … unless you waited for the partner to move the first one out of the way before the second elbow, but that would defeat the object.

PASmith wrote:
Thai pads aren't generally as quick to move and position as focus mitts so they aren't without their flaws but I felt in this sort of drill they'd be a real bonus.

I think that’s true and I can see the advantages described. However, my point would be that the fact thai pads have their own issues does not really give us anything that saves us from having to do all three drills. They just give us differing reasons as to why the others are needed.

If you do all three drills – irrespective of whether focus mitts or thai pads are used – then the matrix covers all things. However, switching to thai pad would not really save anything because the flow is still acquired from the other drills, and the thai pads bring in their own issues that still need mitigating.

All the best,

Iain

PASmith
PASmith's picture

the disadvantages are they are much bigger and throw the distancing off i.e. two thai pads held like that give a “head” that is around two or three times the size of a real head. That effectively messes up the flow too, but in another way i.e. the flow of the technique needs to be compromised in order to take the increased size into account.

The way I visualized was the first elbow would hit the single left pad held facing inward. Size wise Thai pads aren't much wider than a focus pad (but are thicker, longer and heavier of coure). That one could be held pretty close to the pad holder. That pad would get blasted sideways so wouldn't get in the way of the second elbow.

The second elbow would then have a clear path to the right pad help facing forwards. Again taller than a head but not much wider. Then wrap the right hand round to the neck and pull them into a knee into the belly pad. I'd have to drill it but I think you could probably get the left pad down after the first elbow to brace on top of the belly pad for the knee. The one thing that struck me was having to pull the knee a bit as two focus pads aren't sufficient to absorb it. With the pad and belly pad you can really send that knee in with gusto (relative size, power and conditioning of the two participents notwithstanding of course). It seemed to me that if you're going to drill for power the kit should mazimise that element and Thai pads would allow for that more than the mitts.

Paul_L
Paul_L's picture

I find that with Thai pads you have to be very disciplined with how you hold them. They are great for bracing against strikes in some positions, but not others. We had a horrible accident a while back when I elbowed a Thai pad and the pad holder ended up backfisting himself in the temple. Partly it was down to a slip in concentration but also to some degree the way Thai pads are designed.

PASmith
PASmith's picture

I find that with Thai pads you have to be very disciplined with how you hold them.

Aye that's true. True of all striking equipment though to some degree.

One thing I really appreciate, IIRC, is that Iain grades his people on how to be a good pad holder. It's an art unto itself and creating good pad-holders is so much part and parcel of developing everyone in a club I'm amazed more places don't put it in the grading criteria.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

PASmith wrote:
The way I visualized was the first elbow would hit the single left pad held facing inward. Size wise Thai pads aren't much wider than a focus pad (but are thicker, longer and heavier of coure). That one could be held pretty close to the pad holder. That pad would get blasted sideways so wouldn't get in the way of the second elbow.

I’m struggling to visualise that. I can see two ways we can hold:

Way 1 – My lead elbow (left arm), moving left to right, hits the pad on my partner’s left arm (facing in) and knocks it across. My right elbow, moving back to front, then has to hit the pad on the right hand (facing forward). We can’t have the partner’s head behind that pad, so it needs to be held out to the side a little … and that would be what would give the artificially wide “head”.

Way 2 – My lead elbow (left arm), moving left to right, hits the pad on my partner’s right arm (facing out) and knocks it inward. My right elbow, moving back to front, then has to hit the pad on the left hand (facing forward). Again, to keep the elbow away from the holder’s face, they will have to hold it out and forward. Again, we have a wide head.

I think that’s unavoidable as soon as you are holding two pads. The standard jab, cross on the pads has the same issue. The fact the thai pads are thicker adds to the issue in this case too. The focus mitts are moved into the right position to simulate the head, but the downside is the loss of flow (but that’s covered by other drills).

My point would be that we still need the other two drills because both thai pads and focus mitts can’t be a perfect analogue for an actual person (but for different reasons). I feel a thinner long bag works best for this combination as far as the elbows are concerned; not so much for the knees :-)

PASmith wrote:
The one thing that struck me was having to pull the knee a bit as two focus pads aren't sufficient to absorb it. With the pad and belly pad you can really send that knee in with gusto (relative size, power and conditioning of the two participents notwithstanding of course).

Definitely true. The other practicality is cost :-) We have enough focus mitts and kick-shields for everyone. The full power knees we do on the kick shields. On those, you truly don’t have to worry about the person on the receiving end. Thai belly pads are not as that thick or strong, so, for us, they are not worth the cost because the training matrix gives us the full power knees. Everything can get done without them, and the wider training matrix is still needed whatever kit we use.

PASmith wrote:
Iain grades his people on how to be a good pad holder. It's an art unto itself and creating good pad-holders is so much part and parcel of developing everyone in a club I'm amazed more places don't put it in the grading criteria.

Amazes me too. You can’t have good hitters if you don’t have good holders. It’s therefore a grading requirement because we want every member to contribute to development of the group of which they are part. The great thing is that a room of good hitters in turn demands solid holders who can get the pad in the right place too. You get this spiralling positive development.  Good holders make good hitters, and good hitters encourage the development of good holders.

All the best,

Iain