Dan Grades - are they really needed?

I try to instil the idea that while 1st Dans understand the tools the higher grades use them more efficiently.

In this sense the 2nd Dans and higher should demonstrate more composure and general smoothness in their tests.  It shouldn't look like a real struggle.

Gary

Definitely food for thought!

I once met a Kendo-ka who had been a 1st Kyu for many years, and had a great deal of people who had passed him in rank who were willing to learn from this man.   I have also met some individuals who dedicate their lives to the chasing of Dan grades.

It was because of those I met that fell into the latter group I decided to remain a 1st Dan for the last ten years.  I decided that i did not want to chase Dan grades without first developing my understanding of everything that i had already learned.  After reading Iain's first book, "Karate's grappling method" (and all his books since), I realised there was a great deal to learn.  I felt that I owed it to myself, my Sensei, and to Sensei Enoeda (who issued the Dan grade) to make sure that I was worthy of further grades.

Besides, I was always of the understanding that a Dan grade meant that you were now ready to move up to the next level in your training, and further grades were a symbol of your progress along that path.  I now feel i am ready to take the next step.  I do not believe or pretend to know everything, but i feel I have made progress and i am ready to take the next step.

To sumarise, I personaly do not feel that Dan grades are essential, but if the attitude towards them is correct they can be a good indicator of skill level and dedication.

There is so many ways to look at this, but here is one take

A grading is something personal between you and your instructor. Dan grades are not a level playing field, one mans, first Dan is another man's 5th and yet anothers 5th kyu! It is not like school exams that are the same for all.

I am lucky enough to have Iain run the Dan gradings for my club and last time I graded, he failed me (How did I know that he wanted a bigger bribe ;-) Whilst this was upsetting (I cried for a week Iain, I couldn't get out of bed), The feedback has helped my karate and hopefully I am better now than I was on that day.

So what I am saying is that they can be good milestones to make sure you are moving in the right direction and it does give you some pressure to perform, which has to be a good thing?

Done badly, they are pointless. I know someone who stayed at 1st kyu for years "I don't need to grade as I can just learn" but really he was scared. Then one day he got talked into it and passed (not to any standard I would appreciate). Two years later he got a second dan and 3 after a third, but he hadn't been learning, it is just that the exams were not hard. Third dan was the highest physical exam he had so he could now, in time be a 7th Dan. 

I am pretty happy that the Dan grade syllabus in my club is actually progressive, more than happy to talk about it via pm or email if your interested Neil.

I spend 19 yrs as a 1st Dan basicaly because I did not see the reason to learn more kata for promotion. I had enough to keep me busy and am still working to understand the bunkai and variations that I find in the kata I know. Sometimes I feel that the requirememnts for Dan levels are redundant. There are only so many ways a human being can move. I  told my instructor that when he felt I was ready to promote me if he wished but I would not be "testing" to try to gain rank. I beleive we test everytime we step on the floor.

Dan ranks? Award them when you feel the student deserves them. (I was awarded 3rd Dan this past June)

I agree that a Dan Grade should be just a natural progression.

I have a couple of years to go before I am albe to go for my next grade, but I have to take it as I need to provide a Senior Grade in my club, Once I have the next Grade I can relax and "learn my karate myself.

I like the fact that in ShotoKai Dojo's the Highest grade achievable is Go Dan

OSU!!!!

I think they're useful, but over rated. I mean it dosen't matter how much rank you have if someone goes up the side of your head with a beer mug; shoots or stabs you, the only rank you'll have is joe patient in ICU. (intensive care unit)

Here are some indicators that you may be taking your rank more seriously than your training.

1. You can't see your toes because your belly and red belt are in the way.

2. You swear that the name on your birth certificate is Hanshi, renshi,kyoshi or master.

3. Your wear your black belt to bed at night and when you shower.

4. You make your wife and kids kneel before you as you strap on your black belt

5. You honestly believe that your strikes are so deadly that you can kill someone with a touch.

6. You spend more time adjusting you gi and black belt than you do training. Or you don't train because it messes up your gi and black belt.

7. The most important thing in life is getting promoted to the next dan level, never mind rent money, training, physical fitness, the wife and kids.

8. You honsetly believe that since your a 7th, 8th or 9th dan that you can step out into the full contact ring and beat a MMA practitioner 30 years younger than you.

9. Last but not least you think that since your a 7th, 8th or 9th dan that solo kata practice one time a week is all that it takes to be a fighter.

You guys think I'm kidding. Well in some places yes, but in others I'm very serious.

Mike R

Hi Michael,

Well that made me laugh in a “I know that guy!” kind of way ;-)

michael rosenbaum wrote:

2. You swear that the name on your birth certificate is Hanshi, renshi, kyoshi or master.

That’s one of those things that really does not work in the UK. People referring to themselves as “sensei”, “master”, etc smacks of rampant ego in UK culture and tends to be greeted with mocking distain as opposed to admiration. That’s obviously not to suggest that legitimate holders of such titles don’t’ deserve them … but as one very skilled martial artist once told me, “If other people want to refer to me as ‘master’ then that’s up to them, but I would never refer to myself in that way.” When people introduce themselves as “Master X” or “Sensei Y” I tend to hear, “My name is X and I have unresolved insecurity issues” ;-)

michael rosenbaum wrote:

1. You can't see your toes because your belly and red belt are in the way.

8. You honestly believe that since your a 7th, 8th or 9th dan that you can step out into the full contact ring and beat a MMA practitioner 30 years younger than you.

9. Last but not least you think that since your a 7th, 8th or 9th dan that solo kata practice one time a week is all that it takes to be a fighter.

Dan grades should never be a mask to hide inability or be thought of as a substitute for ability. At the end of the day we are all “as good as we are” and no better or worse for having a dan rank. I think dan ranks can be useful, but only as internal measures within a given group. When the belt comes off, only the ability remains.

michael rosenbaum wrote:

4. You make your wife and kids kneel before you as you strap on your black belt

What if you never take it off?

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy wrote:

That’s one of those things that really does not work in the UK. People referring to themselves as “sensei”, “master”, etc smacks of rampant ego in UK culture and tends to be greeted with mocking distain as opposed to admiration.

Very true. 

Gary

Seriously though  I believe a lot of the rank thing has to do with the perception of karate as a solo fighting art. By solo I mean that all you have to do is learn x amount of kata and you get promoted to x grade. Or your ability is judged by how you perform kata solo, nothing else included.

It's been my experience that where live training is the norm i.e. judo, MMA, boxing, even karate schools that stress full contact fighting or else lots of live training, then rank and ability usually equal out. Sure, you'll always have those who are in it for just the belt no matter what, but when live training is include in the school's teachings then ability usually overshadows rank. Only in karate do we look at someone and say "yep, he/she knows 37 kata so they're a 7th dan." 

One kata is enough if you can apply it, but knowing anything past five is more collecting than application.  (I'm speaking for myself too. I can remember at least 15 kata.) Likewise, if it were left up to me, I'd make the first five levels of dan ranking skill based promotions then after 6th dan and the age of 40-45 all else would be awarded on length of practice and dedication. Say age 40 would equal 6th dan, 45 would be 7th dan, 50-8th dan, 60-9th dan and 70 would be 10th dan. The reason I say this is because its not fair to expect someone over 45 to keep up with a person in their 20's.

Anyway, make sure you take off your black belt before you shower. And congradlations Iain on getting promoted to 6th dan. (Though I'm not sure if this is the right place to say so. )

Mike R

michael rosenbaum wrote:

Seriously though  I believe a lot of the rank thing has to do with the perception of karate as a solo fighting art. By solo I mean that all you have to do is learn x amount of kata and you get promoted to x grade. Or your ability is judged by how you perform kata solo, nothing else included.

I think that’s totally true. So much of karate does not measure improvement by combative ability and hence “artificial measures” are all the matters. I’m a great believer in the importance of good solo kata when it comes to karate, but it has to acknowledged for what it is, be understood to be part of the whole, and not be regarded as a valid measure of all aspects of a karateka’s skill.

Funakoshi has something interesting to say about the possibility of grading in karate in his book Karate-Jutsu:

“With continuing research it is not unfeasible that, as in judo and kendo, our karate too might incorporate a grading system through the adoption of protective gear and the banning of attacks to vital points.

 In fact, I believe that it is important to move in that direction. I must emphasise that I am not refuting the viability of grading a person’s level through observing his performance of kata, his hand a leg movements, and questioning him on the meaning of the techniques.”

Combine all of that and the idea of ranking based on fighting, an understanding of bunkai, and quality of technique and movement seems valid enough to me. However, as we now know, the mess that resulted is competitive points sparring and solo performance becoming the be all and end all of ranking, and there is little or no “questioning him on the meaning of the techniques.” That’s OK if a person is grading in an approach that does not claim combative function, but that’s often not the case.

If a ranking system is goal focussed and tests all aspects of actually ability then we can have a system that works well and avoids the pitfalls.

michael rosenbaum wrote:

And congratulations Iain on getting promoted to 6th dan. (Though I'm not sure if this is the right place to say so.)

Thank you! I’d like to think I’ve improved since 2004 when I was ranked 5thdan. So for a few years I’ve felt “more than a 5thdan”, but I still don’t feel like a 6thdan. I’ve “grown into” all my dan grades though and I see that as part of the process.

I also did not get massively better on the day I was graded. Rank is “digital” where as progress is “analogue” and that is yet another issue with the grading system.

So many threads to this issue!

All the best,

Iain

"That’s one of those things that really does not work in the UK. People referring to themselves as “sensei”, “master”, etc smacks of rampant ego in UK culture and tends to be greeted with mocking distain as opposed to admiration."

Ironically enough it is exactly the same in the native Japanese context where these titles originated. They are for use in showing respect to other people and cannot be used for the self. It just sounds rediculous.

 If you think about it, sensei literally means "one who has lived before/ gone before" and so cannot possibly be an objective term. Referring to yourself as sensei means you are respecting yourself for having been there and experienced something before you did!

Funnily enough, the same is true in the West.

It is (was) considered very bad tase to refer to yourself as 'Mr'.

When giving your name on the telephone, for example, you were supposed to just say your last name.  It was the hearer who would then add the Mr bit.

I have to agree with Dave Haze's comments close to the top of this page about "testing every time we step on the floor".  1st Dan means that we have a good solid understanding of the basics, and we are ready to move on.  Beyond that i feel skill, ability, and understanding of the chosen art is more important than how many Dan grades someone has.  At this level we should be willing to learn from and help each other for the sake of the art and for improvement of the collective group.

Thank you to all that have shared your thoughts.

I have decided that the reason i was having so much trouble was that i was not ready to undertake such a task. Maybe in the future with some more experience "under me belt" (pun intended) i can have  a re-think.

Thanks again

For me all grades and levels are just a measure of progress....a marker along the path so to speak.

From White to Black the journey is about the techniques and fundamental movements. The Dan grades are just more time / use of the same techniques. There is no such thing as a Black-belt technique or even advanced technique. They are all basic and fundamental. One description that is in use to describe techniques more accurately is high percentage vs low percentage. The techniques a novice learns are all high percentage ones, because they work for everyone. AS the student progresses, they also learn some of the low percentage techniques, because they olny work for some people, for some game types, for some body types, or technical abilities. They  are not bad techniques, just not everyone can pull them off successfully. Usually when someone describes an 'advanced' technique (as in one for more advanced students), they are describing a low percentage technique.

If they [the techniques] are not fundamentals (i.e. everyone needs to know them to play the game well, and every body does them in virtually the same way)- then look at them carefully and consider if they are really valid at all. Anyone holding back secret echniques and the like is probably trying to sell you something. The difference between the beginning student and the long-time practitioner is that one has years of perfecting the use of the technique against resisting opponents. The other does not. The techniques are the same however.

So for me, the ranks of Dan grades are more a matter of continous training time, where the Kyu grades are about learning all the basic motions of our art form. One is about leanring new things, the other is about creating new things with the tools we have. I've built my syllabus around these concepts. Another way of thinking about it is Kyu rank is earned by learning, Dan grades are awarded through understanding.

Food for thought...

I stopped working towards new Dan grades in Karate when it became clear to me that the skill sets that were being asked of me were different to the ones I was trying to develop.  I do regret never having gained my Shodan in Aikido after 8 years of training, but only from the perspective of grade as a marketing tool - not because I thought it would make me a better Aikidoka.

When I wrote out my first Karate syllabus I devised grade levels up to Godan, with different knowledge and practical requirements for each.  Over time my syllabus has morphed tremendously and I now have only 8 student grades and two instructor grades, the instructor grades (like the student grades) differentiated by greater theory and practical ability requirements.  

I don't hold a grade per se in my own system, though I can certainly do everything I require of a Level 2 Instructor. :)  To keep myself on my toes I've spent time on my own research and training plus gaining 'safety' related 'non MA' qualifications with other groups.  I refer to myself as a coach and the Lead Instructor, but in class I go by my first name.

JWT

All

Sorry for adding a recommendation for a book, but i thought it was totally relevant to the topic of the thread.

For those who are interested I would totally recommend this book. I have it and read it twice already. I am sure a few of you might even recognise the name of the authors too

The Way to Black Belt: A Comprehensive Guide to Rapid, Rock-Solid Results

Lawrence Kane (Author), Kris Wilder (Author), Dan Anderson (Foreword)

It answers many questions, but it also raises many questions too.

Wow, this strikes home with me for sure. You see, in November I received my Taekwondo (Chung-do Kwan, thank you very much!) 1st dan certificate and belt. I know nine hyungs (katas), which I deem more than sufficient! I know several (what's the Korean term for "bunkai"?) applications, but most of my forms' techniques remain a mystery to me.

Worse, my school had a change of instructors. Now, to reach second dan, I need to learn about 18 new WTF forms-but my instructor doesn't know the applications! Surely, in my case, it's better to call myself a Chung do kwan 1st dan yet take the time to learn the applications than learn even more hyungs that I can't use but hold a 2nd dan.

Here's another issue though: if you want to teach, most of the time you NEED  a high ranking belt (and sometimes the certificate to go with it.) Rarely do people go to a 1st dan, however skilled, for instruction. This could be considered one of modern martial arts' problems.