11 posts / 0 new
Last post
Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture
Video Breakdown of Tai-Otoshi (Bassai-Dai / Passai)

This video from Matt D'Aquino provides a great in-depth breakdown of Tai-Otoshi.

I personally see this throw being found (in a stylised way) toward the end of Passai / Bassai-Dai. This video is very useful as it lists some of the key errors that can be made and how to avoid them.

All the best,

Iain

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Great find Iain!

Although not a true suppliment for  good honest dojo time with a grappling style such as Judo, these types of video resource are a real help for those of us with significant home/work/karate balance challenges.

My judo knowledge is limited, as it stems back over 30 years from when I did it at ages 9 and 10... and yet I have never forgotten the principles and found them very useful when interpreting a range of throw heavy kata - H/P Sandan and Bassai etc 

Looks like i'll be getting the matts out again...!

Thanks

Tom

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Just to add to what I said earlier... I also like the interperation of the openning moves of Bassai Dai as a styalised version of kosoto gari tai otoshi.

As seen in this youtube video

Basically my interpretation is covered by the opening moves; the big step & morote uke + the next turn and block (the second 2 blocks being an alternative if the first two fail). This seems to me to fit the types of engagement and key underlying principal presented through out the Bassai kata .. unbalance, throw then finish. 

I can see at least seven distinct phases of this type of principle in the kata... Opening movements (described above), followed by the next phase which shows a leg-lift and dump, Then we have control and knee stamp, then the shoot (rugby tackle), Cripple-wheel, defence against headlock using bodylift and drop and the last throws at the end as shown in your video Iain.

Cheers

Tom

Tau
Tau's picture

That is the single best Tai Otoshi video I've seen. I particularly like his comments on the bent knee as a fundamental safety aspect. It's actually not a difficult throw but the subtleties of it have always eluded me.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I always found tai otoshi to be very difficult to get right (and I still do), but it got much easier when my second judo instructor showed me a variation. That variation happens to look very, very similar to the naname-zenkutsu-dachi/sukui-uke sequence at the end of Passai. The variation was (if doing the throw right-handed) to maintain the sleeve grip with the left hand, but release the right grip and stick the right forearm into the crook of uke's elbow, then focus on "drawing a circle in front of you" with the right hand. I'll try to record a video of it, one of these days, since I've never seen an instructional video showing it. If anybody has seen one, though, please share it!

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

Seems to me Tai Otoshi as shown is watered down.  I can't find any demonstrations of how it should be done correctly.  Or at least how I was taught from when I studied Judo.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I'm curious about your comments, Mr. Parker--how, exactly, is the throw "watered down?" He doesn't do it precisely as I was taught, either, but if the throw works, as shown, in high stress situations, against resisting opponents, then it works. If it were watered down, I wouldn't expect it to work. I am familiar with two general methods of performing tai otoshi (the European method and the Japanese method), but I'm not sure if that difference is what you're referring to. Can you describe what is different about how you were taught tai otoshi?

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

I learned it in Japan, so my guess is it falls under the Japanese way.

Basically once you grab onto the Uke, left leg slightly forward, you essentially jump, switching legs, taking your right leg far deeper behind then what is demonstrated above.  We would practice jumping into essentially a very long zen kutsu dachi.  The result was the person was torqued around you and did not have the time to perform a breakfall, usually landing on their ribs, having the wind knocked out of them.  It is drastically different, definately less safe on the guy being thrown.

I will keep searching for a good example.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Wastelander wrote:
how, exactly, is the throw "watered down?" … if the throw works, as shown, in high stress situations, against resisting opponents, then it works. If it were watered down, I wouldn't expect it to work.

Dale Parker wrote:
The result was the person was torqued around you and did not have the time to perform a breakfall, usually landing on their ribs, having the wind knocked out of them.  It is drastically different, definitely less safe on the guy being thrown.

I think it’s pretty much a given that modern judo is focused on the objectives of modern judo i.e. throw the opponent dynamically, but safely, so they land flat on their back such that an ippon is scored and the match is won. As I understand it, the requirements for a throw to score ippon are, “the contestant, with control, throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed.” It would seem that the version Dale is referring to would not be “effective” in a competition context because two of the four requirements for a outright win are not met i.e. the contest would land on his ribs and not his back, and the lack of control (“definitely less safe on the guy being thrown”). However, the version Dale describes would have a greater finishing effect away from competition due to the awkward landing.

Both versions work. Both versions are effective. Both versions will drop a guy to the floor. The key, as is so often the case, is to match method and tactics with context and objective. As with all modern judo throws, there is a safety element in the execution. I’m not sure “watered down” would be the term I would use – although I can see why that term would fit – as the method of execution has simply been matched to the goal in question and it remains an effective throw.

Dale Parker wrote:
I will keep searching for a good example.

Please do as it would be great to for people to be able to watch the videos and discuss the differences in application. It would also help extend the thread into a discussion on throwing variations for differing objectives. Many thanks.

All the best,

Iain

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

I forgot to mention, there was no competition in this Judo club.  So differences noted.  It was in 1988, I think Judo had fallen to an all time low around that time as far as its popularity, I remember discussions about it potentially being removed from the olympics, etc.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Dale Parker wrote:
I forgot to mention, there was no competition in this Judo club.

That would make sense in light of the variation taught. The club I trained at was very competition focussed and that naturally also influenced training methods and techniques favoured. One of the things I really admired about the club and it’s methods was it was very goal focused and never once suffered from the “split personality” that karate so often can i.e. training methods for sport or art being misunderstood and misrepresented as self-protection methods. They knew exactly what they were training for and how to train it.

If you ever do find a video of the variation you discussed I’d love to see it … although I appreciate that with the prevalence of sport focussed judo that may not be easy to find.

All the best,

Iain