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Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture
Should we let modern styles die...and be reborn?

This is something I've been thinking about for years, but even moreso after going to the boxing gym, and having another sort of paradigm shift in how I do things and teach.

Should we just let modern Karate styles die a little bit?

Case in point: number of kata

Kata are an amazing combative resource once they are understood (took me years with the right people to get comfortable, feeling like I understand them), but even having an intuitive grasp of just one kata's methods requires 1) a basic understanding of combat independent of the kata, enough that you know what you are training for, know what makes sense and what simply does not. and 2) time to focus on one or a few kata for years. Aside from this, I also think there are simply some Kata which are overall more practical than others, if practicality is a goal.

Modern styles (even Goju Ryu, where we have fewer kata) seem to encourage students to do the opposite, they end up encouraging long term memorization of patterns, possibly to the exclusion of other, much more important things.

If I had it to do over again I would teach Sanchin, Naihanchin, and no other Kata until someone had been with me for a long time, then maybe they could pick from the kata I teach most from these days - Saifa, Gekisai, Seuinchin, Kururunfa or seisan.

There is a lot of redundancy in Kata, often there are variations on variations, different ways of showing the same principle, etc. My thought is that many of these things can be understood quite well (perhaps even better) without neccessitating a new pattern. I know all the stories about people only teaching from one or two kata. I don't know their historical veracity but I do feel like the approach itself has more merit.

So, I'm stuck wondering whether it is really worth having someone know that many Kata, period. I see the longer term benefit of some people "archiving" them and passing them down, but it really seems like most students spend too much time simply learning patterns. I feel that it contribues to an underlying notion that complex bunkai sequences and patterns are somehow desirable, because of the emphasis on pattern and pattern anaylsis itself. I wonder if this is a real barrier towards applicable skills.

SimonSutherland
SimonSutherland's picture

I agree and for a while now I've been taking on board many similar comments about training, especially Iain's and others from the forum and elsewhere.

If your curriculum is kata-based then as you said, you select the katas that are to be studied and base your training exercises around those kata. Its fun to add in the odd kata now and then to show how different combinations of techniques can apply the same principle (I've added Gekisai and Seipei).

The objective isn't to learn a kata  its to use a kata. At the end of the day the lessons will have been learned from exercises based on the kata rather than having "simply" to present a bunkai as part of an exam, then forgetting both the bunkai and the kata.

If there was a more effective way of creating exercises to meet objectives, we would be already doing it. But I need to remind myself, why throw away all that research and effort that the past masters went through to create the kata in the first place.

I don't think that we should let kata die, I think that we need to let them live again. promote them and how to use them even more.

I also think that the people who don't get it will need a lot of convincing, but there seem to be lots of people breaking away from modern karate and finding answers in kata and their meaning.

As Iain succinctly says, its all down to your objectives. With no other objective a kata is just a box to tick on a grading syllabus.

If there are number of styles and kata out there then I presume that over time people have taken from the past and adapted it to their ideas. Just as you have said in your mail. We have such a rich set of kata, with different styles etc that, whilst there is a lot of redundacy, it gives us a great set to choose from to make up our own curriculum. I say the more the merrier. The ones that don't interest me (probably because I don't understand them yet), I'll leave aside but I have plenty to be going on with.

So learn a kata as part of the training regime, its fun and lots of lessons can be learned from applying rigid discipline which gets lost in the more "free-form with dirt" exercises. I'm just putting together some notes about the first 3 movements/elements of Heian Shodan; so much to learn and take away from understanding the kata but also understanding the exercises based on these movements. In an answer to another question in the forum, we could be creating exercises from the many kata out there forever and therefore we can be studying karate for a long time to come. (Even modern karate can benefit from studing kata more - nothing like a good oi zuki for getting a bunkai going)

A kata's steps can be learned in less than an hour but an understanding and study will take a lot longer, especially if you don't have someone to guide you. Some people don't know this and therefore don't bother.

Run with your ideas Zach.

Frazatto
Frazatto's picture

Hum.....

I strongly believe diversity is a better approach to almost any problem, it creates resilience in the group, it encourages creativity and it creates a scientific approach when shared and pier reviewed (social pressure testing :P).

Also, the loss of complexity is always a problem in the long run, once the information is lost it's very hard to go back. So only teaching what we individually feel is most useful may end up being detrimental to everybody else.

Thankfully today we have technology to help us archive in high level of details what ever we are doing, but even so, what if I decide not to teach one kata because I "don't quite understand it" and it ends up being something super important that none of my students will ever have the chance to discover?

Yet, I understand TOO MUCH of everything all the time is a equal mistake, a certain degree of specialization is required and maybe that is why having many different stiles trying different approaches to the same things is also important (and we go back to resilience in diversity).

Maybe the middle way? Make sure to cover all the points and focus on what you believe is more important? Let the students know your reasoning behind it so they can have a choice themselves?

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

To put it a little differently, I guess the question I am asking is something like:

Do modern Karate styles have a built in flaw due to the number of Kata in most of them? Does the learning of Kata patterns take up too much space in the training of many Karateka?

I.e. would it theoretically be more beneficial to just stop trying to teach or understand an entire system of Kata, and simply pick a few?

e wrote:
Thankfully today we have technology to help us archive in high level of details what ever we are doing, but even so, what if I decide not to teach one kata because I "don't quite understand it" and it ends up being something super important that none of my students will ever have the chance to discover?

This is precisely the reason my own Goju Ryu teacher has given for "archiving" Kata I don't neccessarily care for, that at some point they may "fit" someone in a way they don't fit me. There's merit to this idea for sure, It just seems like its only an idea that even comes into play with Shodan and above students. Also in terms of students, I've had some that can learn a Kata in a week, others for whom it can take months.

PASmith
PASmith's picture

I view it like a buffet. You need to serve a wide range of "food" to suit everyone but as people go through the buffet they will pick food they like. Even more so if they've had a nibble on eveything and go back for seconds. I don't have to like all the food in the buffet and I shouldn't only put food in the buffet that I like.

In TKD it's basically 1 pattern per grade up to black belt and that sort of make sense to me. It menas there are a lot of patterns to cover but at least the "structure" of gradings is pretty simple.

That said there is definitely a case to be made (pragmatically and historically) for cutting back on kata.

Frazatto
Frazatto's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:
Do modern Karate styles have a built in flaw due to the number of Kata in most of them? Does the learning of Kata patterns take up too much space in the training of many Karateka?

I think everybody understood your question, for myself, I'm trying to present you my arguments and let you come to a conclusion that suits you and your circumstances.

I'm not an instructor yet, have no experience teaching, I can just tell you what I would like and that is space to try and experiment.

The mandatory curriculum only bothers me when I'm bounded by never ending technicalities.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi All,

Zach Zinn wrote:
Do modern Karate styles have a built in flaw due to the number of Kata in most of them? Does the learning of Kata patterns take up too much space in the training of many Karateka?

I think this is definitely a problem; especially when learning all the kata is seen as a priority. In my view it is better that students learn a smaller number of kata BUT they understand and are able to apply those kata.

In my dojo we have a total of 10 kata, with 5 optional extra ones that students can learn and explore from 4th dan up. The don’t need to learn those optional 5, but when people have been training for that long, they may wish to learn some or all.

To get to 1st dan with us typically takes 7 or 8 years. In that time, they learn 6 kata (5 Pinans and Naihanchi), AND all the two person drills that go with them (50 or so), associated pad drills, live drills, etc. That’s less than one kata a year on average.

1st dan to 4th dan takes a minimum of nine years (no one has done it that quickly though), so they learn another 4 kata in that time, plus one or two of the optional ones. Again, this is significantly less than one kata a year on average.

This approach gives us the time to include all the other things an effective, holistic approach requires and, crucially, it gives people the time to develop the skills to actually apply the kata effectively. This Mabuni quote comes to mind (my highlight):

“Therefore, kata must be practiced properly, with a good understanding of their bunkai meaning. There may be those who neglect the practice of kata, thinking that it is sufficient to just practice two-person drills that has been created based on their understanding of the kata, but that will never lead to true advancement. The reason why is that the ways of attacking and defending have innumerable variations. To create two-person drills containing all of the techniques including each and every one of their variations is impossible. However, if one practices kata correctly, it will serve as a foundation for performing - when a crucial time comes - any of the infinite number of variations. However, even if you practice the karate kata as you should, if that is all that you do, if you do not train sufficiently in other areas, then you will not develop sufficient skills. If you do not also use other training methods to strengthen and quicken your hands and feet, as well as to ensure the sufficient study of things like body-shifting and distancing, you will be inadequately prepared when the need arises to call on your skills.” – Kenwa Mabuni, “Practice Karate Correctly”

Zach Zinn wrote:
This is precisely the reason my own Goju Ryu teacher has given for "archiving" Kata I don't necessarily care for, that at some point they may "fit" someone in a way they don't fit me.

Totally. That’s why we have those optional five. It will help ensure they get passed on in an appropriate way, but preserving kata is not placed a head of the functional application of the core kata. We effectively have a situation where the higher grades of the club are preserving the kata for the collective. We don’t want to be the generation that killed them off, but they can’t get in the way of letting the other kata be what they are supposed to be.

All the best,

Iain