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Zach Zinn
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Heath White wrote:

That would be my list too, with the exception that I would have said that if you are “clinching” you are also “grappling vertically.”  I mostly think of throws as finishing moves after the striking has been effective.

I can agree there, I think that's how most of them are shown in Kata as well.

e wrote:
Here I agree partly.  My primary discipline is striking but if I can throw safely and effectively, why not.  On someone significantly bigger than me, it’s dangerous.  However I have gotten a real appreciation for the knee strike in Muay Thai – it exists in karate but I practically never trained it or used it in sparring – and the most effective knees involve grabbing your opponent somehow.  Done right, it works great.

Yeah I guess one exception I make for my "don't grab unless you have to" rule is with knees and elbows. I think with throws the thing is that outside of throws of opportuniy like you mention earlier - basically throws that come after succesfful blows-, it requires some grappling skill to do them - that's what I mean by "vertical grappling", just using body feel/manipulation and grappling to throw.

e wrote:
So I feel like there are a couple cases here.One, you might grab someone offensively.  For example you throw a couple punches and they shell up.  A great follow up is to trap their hands and knee the gut.  You can go for a stronger clinching position like plum but it really isn’t necessary.  If you want to keep throwing knees it might be useful.

Two, someone is overwhelming you and so you initiate a clinch just to trap their arms and get a break.  Now you have to figure out what to do.  Getting a dominant clinch position like plum might be one plan, but there are a bunch of other possibilities too.

Three, you were overwhelming him and he initiated a clinch just to trap your arms and get a break.  Again, what to do.  One option is to swim for a dominant position, but again there are several other options.  Even if he got a plum clinch on you, you can simply change levels and go for a body lock takedown (legal in MT) or a double-leg takedown (not legal in MT).  If he is at the usual, instinctive distance for clinching you can almost certainly knee him.

Hmm, I'll give these scenarios some time in class when I can, I've actually been working a little on the body lock takedown lately.

e wrote:
What I took away from that video was that if the MT guy had been throwing his knees seriously, the BJJ guy would have been in major trouble.  I thought it was also a good illustration of how, once knee strikes are involved, you cannot grapple at the distance most grappling sports (and most grappling drills) use.  Wrestlers, BJJ, judo guys are not planning for knee strikes and if you take your drills directly from those sports, you’re missing a variable that should be key for karateka and self-defense.

Yeah, well it's kind of a pet peeve of mine with videos like that, the grappler just barrels through as if none of those knees would have done anything.

e wrote:
There are two basic takedowns I’ve seen in Muay Thai (with some variations).  One is a body lock takedown and the other looks like a no-gi version of sasae tsurikomi ashi or maybe hiza guruma.  (I don’t know any judo, that’s just what it kind of looks like.)  I am not good at either, but I’ve been thrown by them, and it’s like working with a skilled judoka, you’re on your back in seconds.

I think I know which ones you are talking about, but I will watch some videos, thanks for the info Heath, really interesting to read about.