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Drew Loto
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Naihanchi bunkai

While looking around on the internet I stumbled across this school that calls themselves Kodo Ryu.  They have a youtube channel and a blog.  What fascinates me about them is that they are clearly interested in interpreting kata in a pragmatic way, but their methodology and philosophy are somewhat distinct from what we tend to find here.  I was so intrigued, that after discovering this group, I promptly sent their member who runs the blog a lengthy e-mail and I am currently in an extended correspondence with that person.  So far they only have bunkai for Naihanchi  demonstrated on their youtube, but I wanted to share that here to see what others think.

 And here is one of their several blog posts that discuss the development of their bunkai.  The short of it is that Naihanchi does not provide a method for fighting or escape minded self-defense, but rather a method for controlling and apprehending an aggressive individual.

http://kodoryutotejutsu.blogspot.com/2014_02_01_archive.html

I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks of these ideas.

Mark B
Mark B's picture

I have an almost identical application as shown on this clip for the motion of  the Gedan Barai/45° Tsuki before stepping into the stacked hands posture. I would practice it from Kakie, Muchimi or Kotei-Suru entries. I thought I'd better mention  that for those who will be attending my open session on Naihanchi on the 15th of June, just so they know I didn't simply copy this example, Lol :-). It works too against proper attempts at physical violence with appropriate energy. The centre lock of the first motion  of the kata is fairly standard and a well known option for that sequence. 

One of the beauties of Naihanchi is that if you look deeply it can be interpreted in many different ways, that same Gedan Barai/ 45° Tsuki sequence can have loads of excellent application options. 

All the best

Mark

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I've found Kodo-Ryu to have some very interesting and elaborate kakie practices, which I think are quite useful. That said, I've followed that blog for quite a while, and seen the Naihanchi lock-flow video (not sure if that's the video you posted, since YouTube is blocked at work), and I can't say I agree with their approach to Naihanchi. There is certainly tuidi and karamidi within Naihanchi--and the other old kata of karate--but they overdo it, in my opinion. When you look at the practical applications that have been passed on through older branches of Shuri-Te systems, they just don't mesh with the Kodo-Ryu approach, so I can't see how they can say that what they do is what Naihanchi was "designed for." That said, if it works for them, then more power to them.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

I’m pretty much in full agreement with Wastelander. I have strong reservations about the practicality of what is shown. In short, I don’t believe that the complex locking shown provides “a method for controlling and apprehending an aggressive individual.” If you think that the UK prison service recommends at least three people (all trained professionals) to restrain one person, then I fail to see how one person could ever restrain another without harming them; especially with the complex locks shown which largely rely on the “attacker” holding onto the wrists as opposed to violently impacting.

The actual nature of the violence always needs to be accurately represented. Oi-zukis from 10 feet away don’t do that, and nether does compliantly holding onto wrists. In both case, the “enemy” has to behave like the “defender” and do what they are told for it to work. While the drill is visually impressive, I don’t believe it would withstand the addition of non-compliance, the introduction of non-complimentary methods and aggressive impact.

I also feel the assertions that their approach reveals the true and original function of kata has no historical data to support it (but there is plenty that would contradict it). We discussed this in a recent thread:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/comment/7198#comment-7198

As “martial art” I can admire the flow and grace of what is presented (it’s positively hypnotic) but I can’t accept it as being a legitimate way of controlling a truly aggressive individual in any context. I also have reservations about the strength of the historical claims made and the lack of supporting evidence to validate those claims.

To each their own of course.

All the best,

Iain

Mark B
Mark B's picture

As a complete drill the clip shown is useless for combative purposes. However, there are small elements that can be used in certain scenarios or situations, and utilising the correct energy, such as the example I stated earlier. 

The complete drill is of little use, as Iain states it is unlikely to be useful as presented. On the subject of kata drills which work through an entire form I personally consider them close to useless anyway,  they really serve little practical use in my opinion.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark B wrote:
The complete drill is of little use, as Iain states it is unlikely to be useful as presented. On the subject of kata drills which work through an entire form I personally consider them close to useless anyway, they really serve little practical use in my opinion.

I’d obviously disagree with the last line as I do make use of such drills. They make for time efficient practise and students find them enjoyable (“repetition by stealth”). Doing a solo form immediately followed by all the primary applications with a partner in a single drill is also very good for adding value to solo kata as the students more closely feel that it is the same content being practised in differing ways i.e. the solo kata is seen and felt to be a one man version of the partner drill.

The methods need to be practised in isolation first of course. And it’s vital that – as with all drills – the drill is never mistaken for the “end product”. It needs to be part of the mix along with kata-based-sparring (the free application of kata motions in non-compliant drills).

I’ve also started teaching these longer drills at some of the seminars recently and people tell me they find them easier to remember than if the applications were taught singularly i.e. they only have to remember ONE drill as opposed to many applications.

If by “practical use” you mean their application “as is” in actual combat then I’d agree they are not directly applicable (but that’s also true of kata, pad work, bag work, weight lifting, sparring that has safety measures, etc, etc). But as part of a program of training I do believe they have role to play in the delivery of that training, and that such training does yield practical results.

After all, they are ultimately nothing but the discrete parts practised end to end … if the discrete parts have value and are practical (as I’m sure all here would agree they are) then I fail to see how practicing them quickly one after the other somehow removes the potency of the methods. It’s the exact same stuff.

Here are some of the longer drills I have put on YouTube to illustrate what I mean.

Pinan Godan as a Single Solo Drill

Half of Pinan Yodan as a Single Solo Drill

(You can do the full kata, but I think I give enough away for free via YouTube ;-))

Three Quarters of Kushanku as a Single Solo Drill

These drills are just one other way to practise the applications in addition to all the others we use (single drills, pad drills, semi-live practise, live practise, etc). As part of that mix, I personally find them very useful and so do those I’ve taught them to.

Not everyone likes them of course, but I do think they have value.

All the best,

Iain

stephen
stephen's picture

Kodo Ryu is Nathan Johnson's group, he was the author of Barefoot Zen.

I don't think they are too interested in 'street' (for want of a better word) karate.

Drew Loto
Drew Loto's picture

Kodo Ryu is Nathan Johnson's group, he was the author of Barefoot Zen.

I don't think they are too interested in 'street' (for want of a better word) karate.

What I find interesting is that I remember reading Amazon's description of Barefoot Zen once and it made it sound like Johnson is very forthcoming with the idea that his writings on the relationship between spirituality and karate are revisionist.  That is, he does not claim that the spiritual side of his teachings represent any sort of traditional spiritual system that is associated with ancient karate. Yet, what I've gathered during my correspondence with his student, Kodo Ryu does perport that they're interpretation of karate techniques is representative of what the techniques of ancient karate were.

I have also discovered that their argument seems to rely on two premises.  The first being that each kata provides a repetoire for a specific type of violence.  Naihanchi, for example, teaches a student how to apprehend someone inorder to bind that person's wrists or what have you (for the purpose of law enforcement, most likely.)  The second premise is that the Okinawan practitioners did not know the applications of kata movements--the applications did not survive the importation from China to Okinawa.  These assertions don't exactly agree with my own thoughts on the matter, but even if I granted their validity, I find it plausible that a seasoned fighter, such as Itosu supposedly was, would be more than capable of seeing the combative value of the forms, and would be able to teach his well thought out interpretation of the forms, much in the way many modern karateka do.  That's just my two cents on the Kodo Ryu perspective--an argument I already presented in my correspondence. 

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I've gone back and forth on the value of flow drills over the course of my training. Early on, when I wasn't really concerned with practical application, I thought they were very interesting and fun. After I started really getting into the pragmatic side of things, I decided that anything that wasn't immediately applicable was a waste of time. Now, I've come to see the value that flow drills have in promoting repetition, and in developing effective reactions to attackers defending against your techniques. I even put together my own flow drill for Naihanchi Shodan, which I've shared here, before, but have made changes to, since then All that said, I do think that the techniques in your flow drill should be practical in nature. I have never found finger locks that grip all four fingers to be practical (they slip out of your hands far too easily), nor have I found anyone who will hold on to you without resisting while you apply an elaborate series of locks.

For those who are curious, this is the kakie of Kodo-Ryu, which I mentioned previously as being something I see value in:

Mark B
Mark B's picture

That clip is almost identical to the way I teach Kakie/Muchimi in my dojo. It is a more  free expression of energy. 

The early grades work on simpler, more standard kakie and Muchimi exercises, occasionally with pre determined  Bunkai Oyho,  sometimes random.

The kakie/Muchimi exercises we practice, as on the clip are the stimulus at close quarter from which our applications,  mainly from Naihanchi, a kata I have been studying for well over 6 years over all the other kata ,will be applied. Practicing in this fashion allows the individual to feel and apply, this reduces the " Bunkai for this" or "Bunkai for that" approach.

I had the pleasure of one of my students of only six weeks, a doorman in a town centre bar, telling me he used exactly this approach last weekend to recieve, redirect and neutralise an aggressive customer with minimum fuss .

I should add that I never waste energy on fiddly locks, the odds of those working are slim. The applications will always be direct and efficiently brutal.

Good share that Wastelander. Thanks

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

I await to be corrected, but I recall that Nathan Johnston also studied and taught Wing Chun? There’s some lovely flow and control in the above clip, and I think you can see the Wing Chun influence in the pushing hands above.

I feel that trapping (or “limb control” as I prefer to call it) is an important part of the mix, but it should not be over emphasised.

Geoff Thompson said, “From my experience blocking, parrying, trapping etc do not work effectively or consistently when the pavement is your arena. They look as though they might work, they feel as though they should work and in the dojo they are all certainly very effective, but the dojo is not the street, it never has been and it never will be.” I agree totally.

Controlling limbs to open up striking opportunities, to limit the enemies striking opportunities, and to get the required  grips and positions is very important. I’m less convinced about the “freezing of the range” to allow trapping and counter trapping to continue to the “depth” we often see.

Marc MacYoung had a great way of putting it when he said that trapping was like driving through a bad neighbourhood. In most cases you’ll wiz through that neighbourhood and never have an issue (i.e. “trapping range” is fleeting), but if you breakdown in the middle of the neighbourhood you’re going to have problems.

To freeze the range (i.e. not immediately move into full on striking or grappling, or extend the range to facilitate escaping) as a training method in order to isolate the range and its methods seems totally sensible to me. However, if we freeze the range and mistake the resulting exchange as being a simulation of criminal violence then that obviously leads to misunderstanding and big problems if the conditioned expectation is for an actual trapping / push hands exchange to take place.

As with all things, the training method needs to be understood from the context of its true purpose, the wider methodology, and the true nature of the goal and objective.

All the best,

Iain

Mark B
Mark B's picture

I agree completely with that Iain. The kakie/Muchimi exercises I employ in my dojo are artificially elongated to give the student plenty of practice at handling that range. As they become more proficient at feeling the energy then the drills are shortened in an attempt to better mirror the requirements of self protection. As with the example I gave above of my student on the door the drills he learns enabled him to read the energy and apply immediately. Regards Mark

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I'm of the opinion that kakie/muchimi drills are precisely that--skill-building drills--rather than directly applicable fighting techniques. They certainly contain practical applications but, as Iain points out, you wouldn't benefit from purposefully trying to do nothing but kakie/muchimi in a fight or self defense situation. It's a means to an end, and a very important skill, but I do think some people overdo it. Taira Sensei's bunkai seems to be a bit heavy on the kakie/muchimi, for me, personally, but not so much that it makes it unworkable. Interestingly, I recently learned that Onaga Sensei's system only utilizes kata applications that can be employed in a kakie/muchimi context, so I would be interested to see how they train.

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Kakie is not intended as an applicable fighting technique, rather I consider them entry techniques.  Violence is often preceded by an aggressor attempting to invade the defenders space, as in the situation which involved my student as I described above. 

Pushing and redirecting your opponents energy is hardly likely to dissuade them from continuing there aggressive intention,  hence the need to quickly take appropriate action, if required, by way of percussive techniques.

As I described above my student applied this in a live situation recently. It was he who openly admitted he would have been unable to counter the aggression in that fashion without this element of my approach to karate for real time confrontation. This is fact, not theory.

Naihanchi affords many ways of approaching your karate for pragmatic use, it's up to the individual to best structure their system. For me controlling a pre- impact tactile situation is structured around  kakie/Muchimi exercises, that of course is only one strand to the system.

II'm not sure if I could create my whole system around kakie as you mention regarding Onaga Sensei, but if he feels it would tick the boxes then I suppose that's his choice.

Real violence is a quickfire affair in the most part but tactile training can provide a window into the intentions of a potential aggressor which can provide you with enough info to go pre-emptive, or failing that , counter offensive, again Naihanchi covers that nicely with its wedge option. 

The wedge and tactile work account for most of my entries and a large slice of our dojo practice, two relatively simple principles off which the type of application practices I favour (simple & direct) work very effectively

All the best

Mark