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Found this on Youtube today (from around 2000). Some great, insightful stuff from Geoff Thomspon from around 11 minutes onwards. Can't believe I missed this first time around!
Like I said, can't believe I missed it first time around. I would love the chance to train with some of these peopel (especially Geoff - his theory on dojo etiquette it quite impressive and forward thinking).
The only issue that got me was the guy with the long hair in the Hakuma with "40" blackbelts. Sorry but how would you get the time to study all these styles.
The only issue that got me was the guy with the long hair in the Hakuma with "40" blackbelts. Sorry but how would you get the time to study all these styles.
Yeah I found that a bit unbelievable too. Apparently the majority of his blackbelts are in various weapons systems. And hey, if the Guiness Book of Records says it is true, who are we to argue? LOL
The only issue that got me was the guy with the long hair in the Hakuma with "40" blackbelts. Sorry but how would you get the time to study all these styles.
Marcus_1 wrote:
Yeah I found that a bit unbelievable too. Apparently the majority of his blackbelts are in various weapons systems. And hey, if the Guinness Book of Records says it is true, who are we to argue? LOL
The gent is question is Michael Finn and he’s a skilled guy with a sound reputation. If I recall correctly he has “40 black belts in 10 martial arts”. So an average of 4th dan in each – he started training in the 1950s – which is impressive and certainly not beyond the realms of legitimacy. He also was a serving police officer, a police trainer, and he’s been used many times as an expert witness in UK criminal and civil cases involving self-defence, weapons, martial arts, etc. He used to write a lot in the martial arts magazines, but you don’t hear that much from him these days. He’s written a few good books as well. Never met him personally, but I know a few good guys who were students of his.
Sadly, I can understand the scepticism, but Michael Finn is not a self-promoted “multi-master” :-)
I don't understand that. If you're a fourth Dan you don't have four blackbelts, you have one. If we are going to start adding everything up then I'm a 28th Kyu :-/
I guess "40 black belts" sounds much more impressive to the layman and is easier to understand than "An agregate dan ranking of 40 across 15 or so martial syllabi" or something more accurate.
Looking over the actual ranks and disciplines/ organisations involved, this is not unreasonable for a man who would have trained for 50 odd years or so. A great many of those grades (especially the weapons ones) are in very similar and related disciplines which have a massive overlap in technical content. As far as I am aware, Mr Finn trained a lot in Japan and It must also be said that lower dan ranks (up to around 4th) are much more freely given there than is common in Europe and many other places. Not to devalue any of his grades of course, but while a list like this might look outlandish and a little suspect to European martial artists, many of the senior Japanese practitioners have similar legitimate credentials (Plenty of charlatans there too though!).
If he were claiming a 10th dan from the Kyokushinkai honbu, a 10th Dan in Brazillian jujutsu from the Gracie family, a 10th Dan in Aikikai aikido from their honbu and a 10th dan in judo from the Kodokan then something would clearly be amiss, but I don't see a problem here.
I trained with Mike Finn in the early 1980s I really enjoyed it he was an excellent instructor and a 110% kosher, I did Judo and the GoshinJutsu kata from Judo with him. I endorse what Gavin said re Dan grades in Japan when I went their to train in the late 1980s the average Japanese grade on the mat were 5th dans and they were considered beginners!! Me pondlife; in Japan a 1st /2nd is a beginner grade much like depending on your method is a yellow belt here. He was a training partner for Donn Drager and also Quetin Chambers who co authored the stick fighting book with Dr Hatsumi.
He is a very interesting person to talk to he was very big on the basics; I am not certain now the new generation of Martial artists would necessary have that patience. I glad I trained with hm even though I went a seperate way. I have got copy of his police self defence book somewhere.
I do remember seeing this documentry but it was great to see it again; as i picked up on other minor details I didt see the first time around so many thanks for posting it.
He clearly has skills, has trained, and competed. He has been a teacher in many professional venues and clearly trusted there. I see him as legit. A little odd, but aren't we all? I think he is probably a good guy to work with. But Martial artists who want to be on TV are usually self-promoting a bit.
The red flags come up on only two fronts that I can see.
1) He is an inductee into the Martial Arts 'Hall of Fame'. Many of these organizations are just marketing tools. People "nominating" themselves and their friends to be able to market themselves to future students. The 'awards' cost money though. I have been "Nominated" 6 times in the past 14 years at random times, from 2 defferent hall of fame groups, by mail! All I had to do was pay the fees, then choose the category that I would like my award to display. I did not do it. A few training buddies I know have bought the plaques and one went to the 'gala dinner' they host, (which costs hundreds,) but there you get to be presented your "award". My buddy who did it knows it is not a true honor from a knowing peer group, but he says it helps when folks come into his school, off the street. Bleh! Anyhow, the various hall of fame things seem to be about making money. This set of statements will undoubtedly piss off a few folks who have also (understandably) used this marketing angle, and I mean nobody who has, any offense,... but among our peers, it is not a bragging point. If folks want to say it is, well we each have our own integrity line to maintain. As an example, there is a local Iaido / Aikido teacher in our area that maintains that he is, "the only teacher in the region who is a four time inductee to the Hall of Fame." He is a local joke to the rest of us now. When he shows up to seminars he intentionally trains with white belts and lower-rank women. He never looks to train with his "peer" level practitioners that he, himself has publicly said are NOT hall of fame members, therefore, not his equal! It is funny. But the TV show makes a point of mentioning the Hall of Fame thing.... which means Finn brought it up in the interviews for TV audiences to be impressed. Nuf said.
2) Mr. Finn claims he has a 'black belt' 1st Dan in Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu. Well, since I known more than one of the headmasters of that ryu for ever a decade, I can only say this; It is a school that promotes students with makimono scrolls, that connote the level a student has reached, and eventually a 'Menkyo kaiden' position that has a 'Shidosha' teaching permission. But in the '70's a number of schools created the kyu/dan system for students who would only be training a short period, and needed the goal to work towards and the ability to leave with some kind of rank. I.E. a Dan ranking might still only mean the person trained for a year or two at most, while visiting Japan. So that credential he has listed is either BS, He trainined a while and they gifted him a rank, or its from a non-aligned school that is doing their own thing. He has written a book about the art with an obvious beginner's knowledge about the seite forms, but those who practice look at it as an introductory book and nothing more. Other than that I cannot comment.
An as a side note; most folks do not list the graded steps within any given art as separate black belts. Ex: If I have a Fifth-Dan ranking in "Wabi Sabi Teriyaki Chicken Ryu", it does not mean I have five separate black belts. It means I have worked hard and been graded up. It is a bit deceptive I think. I get it, but it makes his Guiness thing crap out a bit.
By the way, I am happy to promote anyone willing to pay me well, IN the esoteric art of Wabi Sabi Teriyaki Chicken Ryu!
Watched both parts last night really enjoyed them, nice insite into martial arts etc
Good find thanks
Like I said, can't believe I missed it first time around. I would love the chance to train with some of these peopel (especially Geoff - his theory on dojo etiquette it quite impressive and forward thinking).
The only issue that got me was the guy with the long hair in the Hakuma with "40" blackbelts. Sorry but how would you get the time to study all these styles.
Yeah I found that a bit unbelievable too. Apparently the majority of his blackbelts are in various weapons systems. And hey, if the Guiness Book of Records says it is true, who are we to argue? LOL
The gent is question is Michael Finn and he’s a skilled guy with a sound reputation. If I recall correctly he has “40 black belts in 10 martial arts”. So an average of 4th dan in each – he started training in the 1950s – which is impressive and certainly not beyond the realms of legitimacy. He also was a serving police officer, a police trainer, and he’s been used many times as an expert witness in UK criminal and civil cases involving self-defence, weapons, martial arts, etc. He used to write a lot in the martial arts magazines, but you don’t hear that much from him these days. He’s written a few good books as well. Never met him personally, but I know a few good guys who were students of his.
Sadly, I can understand the scepticism, but Michael Finn is not a self-promoted “multi-master” :-)
All the best,
Iain
Found this online, which shows Mike Finn would be listed as having 50+ black belts now. As you see, it's impressive, but not outlandish.
All the best,
Iain
Black Belt qualifications undertaken in Japan include:
Other Black Belt qualifications include:
http://www.elite-int.com/expert_witness_qualifs.html
I don't understand that. If you're a fourth Dan you don't have four blackbelts, you have one. If we are going to start adding everything up then I'm a 28th Kyu :-/
I guess "40 black belts" sounds much more impressive to the layman and is easier to understand than "An agregate dan ranking of 40 across 15 or so martial syllabi" or something more accurate.
Looking over the actual ranks and disciplines/ organisations involved, this is not unreasonable for a man who would have trained for 50 odd years or so. A great many of those grades (especially the weapons ones) are in very similar and related disciplines which have a massive overlap in technical content. As far as I am aware, Mr Finn trained a lot in Japan and It must also be said that lower dan ranks (up to around 4th) are much more freely given there than is common in Europe and many other places. Not to devalue any of his grades of course, but while a list like this might look outlandish and a little suspect to European martial artists, many of the senior Japanese practitioners have similar legitimate credentials (Plenty of charlatans there too though!).
If he were claiming a 10th dan from the Kyokushinkai honbu, a 10th Dan in Brazillian jujutsu from the Gracie family, a 10th Dan in Aikikai aikido from their honbu and a 10th dan in judo from the Kodokan then something would clearly be amiss, but I don't see a problem here.
I suppose it was the Film Makers "enhancing" his credentials to make the film better. Supprised they didn't do a similar thing with the other Masters.
Good programme anyway
I trained with Mike Finn in the early 1980s I really enjoyed it he was an excellent instructor and a 110% kosher, I did Judo and the GoshinJutsu kata from Judo with him. I endorse what Gavin said re Dan grades in Japan when I went their to train in the late 1980s the average Japanese grade on the mat were 5th dans and they were considered beginners!! Me pondlife; in Japan a 1st /2nd is a beginner grade much like depending on your method is a yellow belt here. He was a training partner for Donn Drager and also Quetin Chambers who co authored the stick fighting book with Dr Hatsumi.
He is a very interesting person to talk to he was very big on the basics; I am not certain now the new generation of Martial artists would necessary have that patience. I glad I trained with hm even though I went a seperate way. I have got copy of his police self defence book somewhere.
I do remember seeing this documentry but it was great to see it again; as i picked up on other minor details I didt see the first time around so many thanks for posting it.
Regarding Mr. Finn,
He clearly has skills, has trained, and competed. He has been a teacher in many professional venues and clearly trusted there. I see him as legit. A little odd, but aren't we all? I think he is probably a good guy to work with. But Martial artists who want to be on TV are usually self-promoting a bit.
The red flags come up on only two fronts that I can see.
1) He is an inductee into the Martial Arts 'Hall of Fame'. Many of these organizations are just marketing tools. People "nominating" themselves and their friends to be able to market themselves to future students. The 'awards' cost money though. I have been "Nominated" 6 times in the past 14 years at random times, from 2 defferent hall of fame groups, by mail! All I had to do was pay the fees, then choose the category that I would like my award to display. I did not do it. A few training buddies I know have bought the plaques and one went to the 'gala dinner' they host, (which costs hundreds,) but there you get to be presented your "award". My buddy who did it knows it is not a true honor from a knowing peer group, but he says it helps when folks come into his school, off the street. Bleh! Anyhow, the various hall of fame things seem to be about making money. This set of statements will undoubtedly piss off a few folks who have also (understandably) used this marketing angle, and I mean nobody who has, any offense,... but among our peers, it is not a bragging point. If folks want to say it is, well we each have our own integrity line to maintain. As an example, there is a local Iaido / Aikido teacher in our area that maintains that he is, "the only teacher in the region who is a four time inductee to the Hall of Fame." He is a local joke to the rest of us now. When he shows up to seminars he intentionally trains with white belts and lower-rank women. He never looks to train with his "peer" level practitioners that he, himself has publicly said are NOT hall of fame members, therefore, not his equal! It is funny. But the TV show makes a point of mentioning the Hall of Fame thing.... which means Finn brought it up in the interviews for TV audiences to be impressed. Nuf said.
2) Mr. Finn claims he has a 'black belt' 1st Dan in Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu. Well, since I known more than one of the headmasters of that ryu for ever a decade, I can only say this; It is a school that promotes students with makimono scrolls, that connote the level a student has reached, and eventually a 'Menkyo kaiden' position that has a 'Shidosha' teaching permission. But in the '70's a number of schools created the kyu/dan system for students who would only be training a short period, and needed the goal to work towards and the ability to leave with some kind of rank. I.E. a Dan ranking might still only mean the person trained for a year or two at most, while visiting Japan. So that credential he has listed is either BS, He trainined a while and they gifted him a rank, or its from a non-aligned school that is doing their own thing. He has written a book about the art with an obvious beginner's knowledge about the seite forms, but those who practice look at it as an introductory book and nothing more. Other than that I cannot comment.
An as a side note; most folks do not list the graded steps within any given art as separate black belts. Ex: If I have a Fifth-Dan ranking in "Wabi Sabi Teriyaki Chicken Ryu", it does not mean I have five separate black belts. It means I have worked hard and been graded up. It is a bit deceptive I think. I get it, but it makes his Guiness thing crap out a bit.
By the way, I am happy to promote anyone willing to pay me well, IN the esoteric art of Wabi Sabi Teriyaki Chicken Ryu!
Train well dudes. Will
Nice program. Thanks for sharing.
By the way, I think its a good thing that we're not required to wear every single belt we achieved by grading.
Or we would sooner or later look like this guy who wears his 10 black belts.
No disrespect, just a little fun about saying 10 black belts instead of 10th level black belt.
The Black Belt mummy, soon to be.
S shame that the youtube account with the video is no longer available, does anybody know of an alternative link to it? Thanks - Theo