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Zach Zinn
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History of the Yoko Geri

Did Funakoshi turn the Mae-Geris found in the Pinan series into the Yoko Geri from the Heians?

A larger question, when did this kick rise to prominence, so to speak? Today it is of course a staple of Karate generally, but as far as I know is not found in older kata at all, unless you count the sidekick to the knee joint.

Does anyone know where or how this particular innovation came about?

krian_89
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It seems to be so.

Did Funakoshi turn the Mae-Geris found in the Pinan series into the Yoko Geri from the Heians?

In Kousaku Yokota's book: Shotokan mysteries the author talks about these changes that Funakoshi Introduced.

A larger question, when did this kick rise to prominence, so to speak? Today it is of course a staple of Karate generally, but as far as I know is not found in older kata at all, unless you count the sidekick to the knee joint.

One theory that he proposes is that it's in order to compensate for the changes Funakoshi made to kata by the introduction of kokutsu dachi, which is not found in okinawan karate.

Another theory is that since Funakoshi was teaching college students at that time, and that youths would have asked to learn different kinds of kicks, Funakoshi might have taught it. Another point is that it looks cool compared to a simple mae-geri to the groin.

The author also mentions how kokutsu dachi came about since it's one stance unique to shotokan karate.

Zach Zinn
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I actually think Kokutsu Dachi is easier to understand. There are some old versions of Shorin Kata I've seen that do Neko ashi dachi with the front foot down, essentially a small kokutsu stance. I've read about the Kendo link to Kokutsu stance, but to me that change could be a less intentional one.

Changing mae geri to yoko geri is a fairly large change, I imagine it's detailed somewhere...I just don't know where to look.

Chris R
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I was always told it was Funakoshi. Although I've never seen an official explanation as to why this change was made.

I think that on the surface it appears to be a large change, but in practical terms it isn't always a big difference, as in those kata sequences the overall principles appear to be the same. Yoko geri instead of mae geri may just have been an alteration that Funakoshi thought made those kata sequences more effective or easier to learn. For the purpose of an example, consider iains armlock application for the yoko geri sequence in heian yodan. It works with either a yoko geri or mae geri, so which one you use is a matter of preference. But the overall principles etc are the same regardless of which one you choose. Perhaps yoko geri simply fit better with how funakoshi thought the kata should be applied, so he made the change?

Zach Zinn
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I don't think it's any less effective, in fact when younger it might even been my preference. My yoko geri is not what it once was, while my mae geri is still good, but everyone is different anyway. I remember Funakoshi's To Te Jitsu looking mostly like the Shorin versions and still being all front kicks, and was just wondering about the history of the change. Probably one of those things mostly lost to time.

krian_89
krian_89's picture

One more point that I forgot to add was that it was mentioned that Funakoshi was being patronised by kano, and often taught judoka(at least initially). Now apparently it so happened Funakoshi was asked to duel with some of the judoka,s and he thought that a kick to the groin would be a straightforward win and to give some face to judo ( well he was being patronised), he made some variations. However, I don't find this theory very convincing.

Also, I had read somewhere (not sure where though) that the Yoko Geri was one of Funakoshi's favourite techniques, don't know how much this could have contributed to this change.

Wastelander
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I know it's slightly off topic, but kokutsu-dachi does appear in some Okinawan systems, although it's much shorter than the modern kokutsu-dachi of Shotokan. KishimotoDi, for example, has no neko-ashi-dachi, whatsoever, but uses a short kokutsu-dachi, instead. Additionally, Chibana Chosin noted that the heel of the lead foot in neko-ashi-dachi was only supposed to be "a paper thickness off the floor," indicating that it should be pretty close to kokutsu-dachi, as well. I would actually suggest that neko-ashi-dachi was an evolution of kokutsu-dachi, rather than the other way around, as you see the heel continuing to get higher and higher over time, in addition to Motobu's comments on the matter, and its absence in a non-Itosu lineage of Shuri-Te.

Heath White
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I cannot recall where I read this, but I did read once that Funakoshi developed the side kick out of the characteristic Shotokan big stomp to the knee.  The idea was that he originally changed some of the front kicks into knee stomps.  Then to give his university students something flashier and more athletic to do, he just told them not to put the foot down, transforming the stomp into a side kick, and of course the kick got higher over time.

 No idea if that's really true.

Chris R
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It's also worth considering whether our modern yoko geri is the same as the original funakoshi one. If you look at old photos of funakoshi doing kata, his side kicks don't look exactly like the modern version. They're more like kicks to the side, than the modern yoko geri. His foot doesn't end parallel to the ground, and it makes me doubt whether he would have done a chambered kick like we see nowadays. So perhaps it is actually not as different to the mae geri as one might think. It also doesn't look much like a stomp, at least in the photos I've seen of him doing it.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Chris R wrote:
It's also worth considering whether our modern yoko geri is the same as the original funakoshi one. If you look at old photos of funakoshi doing kata, his side kicks don't look exactly like the modern version. They're more like kicks to the side, than the modern yoko geri. His foot doesn't end parallel to the ground, and it makes me doubt whether he would have done a chambered kick like we see nowadays. So perhaps it is actually not as different to the mae geri as one might think. It also doesn't look much like a stomp, at least in the photos I've seen of him doing it.

This is a really good point. one of the variations of the front kick that I've learned over the years is a "shomen geri", essentially a front kick where you kick using the heel, depending on the angle I think it's something pretty close to this kind of kick.

Chris R
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Zach Zinn wrote:
one of the variations of the front kick that I've learned over the years is a "shomen geri", essentially a front kick where you kick using the heel, depending on the angle I think it's something pretty close to this kind of kick.

In the pictures I was talking about, funakoshi has his foot in a natural position. His toes aren't pulled back as if he is striking with the ball of his foot, and the angle of his foot would not be suitable for striking with the blade of the foot either. So based on that, using the heel is a plausible explanation. I've heard a number of shotokan people claim it's supposed to be a groin kick, but I'm not sure where they got that idea from.

Heath White
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I also read once, in a place I can't remember, that in some old Okinawan  styles they distinguish "front kick to the front" from "front kick to the side".  I take it Chris R is talking about this latter thing,  which has disappeared from modern karate. 

Zach Zinn
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Heath White wrote:

I also read once, in a place I can't remember, that in some old Okinawan  styles they distinguish "front kick to the front" from "front kick to the side".  I take it Chris R is talking about this latter thing,  which has disappeared from modern karate. 

So, like a sidekick but without turning your hip over, i.e. it goes to the side but the toes still point upwards, while you are side-facing?

Heath White
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I think so, although I think of it as a front kick pointed out to the side of your body.  It's not a hard motion to do.

Zach Zinn
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Heath White wrote:

I think so, although I think of it as a front kick pointed out to the side of your body.  It's not a hard motion to do.

Hmm that's interesting in light of the disucssion...so in the Matsubayashi Ryu version for instance:

 

If someone just didn't shift the body before kicking you'd end up with either a sidekick or this "side front kick".

Chris R
Chris R's picture

I think it's a more likely explanation than saying it's meant to be a low side kick. It seems funakoshi didn't demonstrate or put it into the kata as a low side kick. Bassai dai has a clear low side kick, which wasn't hidden and shown as a higher kick. If we assume every yoko geri in shotokan kata is meant to be applied as a low side kick, then why make bassai dai an exception? I think it's more plausible that they are actually different techniques. I'd suspect that we see the modern higher side kick in kata as a modification of the older more straight version. The modern side kick looks better aesthetically, and doing both front and side kicks is better for physical attribute development. So it makes sense if that change occurred during the process of karate being spread for different purposes like sport or education.

Wastelander
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The "front kick to the side" evolving into the side kick is one that I had heard, before. Personally, I suspect that the evolution of yoko-geri was a combination of factors, not just one thing. The "front kick to the side" (which KishimotoDi still does, and shows up in a few other styles, as well) does certainly seem to be the technique that was most often replaced with yoko-geri at a later date, but at the same time, they are mechanically very different, with yoko-geri being more reminiscent of an extended stomp, as Heath proposed. Indeed, the mechanics of yoko-geri and kansetsu-geri do suggest that the former evolved from the latter, and that is my preferred theory. When it comes to the kata, though, I suspect technique substitution was done based on preference and differing levels of understanding; the stomps and joint kicks explicitly in the kata already made sense, so they didn't change them, but perhaps the "front kick to the side" didn't, and they figured that their newly-developed, higher, extended stomp (yoko-geri) would be better suited to what they believed a "front kick to the side" should do.

Chris R
Chris R's picture

Wastelander wrote:
they figured that their newly-developed, higher, extended stomp (yoko-geri) would be better suited to what they believed a "front kick to the side" should do.

That makes a lot of sense. The thing I'm curious about is how they would have applied that in context of the kata. To me, the side kick that makes sense at close range is kansetsu-geri. Extended stomps that look like yoko geri do work, but they're far better at long range. Jon jones used them effectively alongside his typical oblique kick, for example. When you're at close range, kansetsu-geri and a "front kick to the side" are both more effective in my opinion. Consider that in various kata these sequences suggest you are quite close, even often finishing with elbows, in which case I feel that an extended stomp doesn't make much sense.

Zach Zinn
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Chris R wrote:
That makes a lot of sense. The thing I'm curious about is how they would have applied that in context of the kata. To me, the side kick that makes sense at close range is kansetsu-geri. Extended stomps that look like yoko geri do work, but they're far better at long range. Jon jones used them effectively alongside his typical oblique kick, for example. When you're at close range, kansetsu-geri and a "front kick to the side" are both more effective in my opinion. Consider that in various kata these sequences suggest you are quite close, even often finishing with elbows, in which case I feel that an extended stomp doesn't make much sense.

I'e always felt the elbow following the sidekick is more of a stretch (so to speak!) than following the front kick, where it fits pretty darn well. Admittedly, again a part of that is my waning hip mobility.

Chris R
Chris R's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:
I'e always felt the elbow following the sidekick is more of a stretch (so to speak!) than following the front kick, where it fits pretty darn well. Admittedly, again a part of that is my waning hip mobility.

Shotokan is my style and I have no hip issues, yet also for me the front kick version is more direct and faster than the side kick version. I think this is largely due to the angles involved in terms of the hips. As an aside, I don't feel that the side kick version has any practical advantage. I've heard a few shotokan guys claim that it does, but I've never seen this demonstrated or heard a logical explanation.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Chris R wrote:
That makes a lot of sense. The thing I'm curious about is how they would have applied that in context of the kata. To me, the side kick that makes sense at close range is kansetsu-geri. Extended stomps that look like yoko geri do work, but they're far better at long range. Jon jones used them effectively alongside his typical oblique kick, for example. When you're at close range, kansetsu-geri and a "front kick to the side" are both more effective in my opinion. Consider that in various kata these sequences suggest you are quite close, even often finishing with elbows, in which case I feel that an extended stomp doesn't make much sense.

Considering that the people who likely developed these changes (Funakoshi Gigo and his contemporaries/students) were instrumental in the development of the 3K approach we see, today, I would guess they were thinking exactly what you see when you look at modern 3K bunkai for those movements.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Chris R wrote:
Shotokan is my style and I have no hip issues, yet also for me the front kick version is more direct and faster than the side kick version. I think this is largely due to the angles involved in terms of the hips. As an aside, I don't feel that the side kick version has any practical advantage. I've heard a few shotokan guys claim that it does, but I've never seen this demonstrated or heard a logical explanation.

I remember it being really good to get in right as people advanced in long range free sparring. I haven't done much of that kind of sparring for a long time though. I don't consider it a practical kick in particular, but I've always felt it's something worth "keeping alive" much in the way I do with wristlocks or something like that. It occupies it's place, but it's not a prominent one. As a Gojuka it's been sort of optional anyway. So I tend to agree that it's the less practical of the two, although like I said, I think it's a thing that is very dependent on physical attributes, some people are athletic and/or long limbed enough that for them, it approaches being practical I guess. A variation which might be good for certain people.