Hi all,
I couldn't find anything on the site about this.
Any advice about self-protection from dogs? Serious question. A couple of times in the last few months I've been this-close to having to defend myself and a daughter from loose dogs in my neighborhood. One was a Great Dane. The other wasn't quite that big but wasn't a little guy either.
Any thoughts? (Bring a knife?) Different physiology, more worry about teeth instead of strikes, probably different legal standard...it's a very different self-protection paradigm. If nothing else it could be an interesting thought experiment.
Thanks, y'all...
Christian
In the first instance, please report it to the Police. Other people may be at risk.
Great question. I'll comment. First, let me say that the environment and the context have a huge influence on the best strategy for handling this problem. I'm going to give advice based on my own background, but it could be completely useless for your problem. (Nevertheless, since this is a general forum, maybe someone will find it of interest.)
I grew up in a very rural part of Kentucky where most families own dogs. In that area, a lot of people will intentionally buy dogs to guard the home. When I was growing up, formal dog training was practically unheard of. I think it's still that way now. All it takes is an abusive or neglectful owner, and you can very quickly have a problem with large, aggressive dogs roaming over everyone's property. So that's what I'm thinking of when I give this advice . . . your situation may be entirely different.
And before anyone takes this the wrong way: let me reiterate that I'm talking about large, dangerous dogs. I'm not talking about punting a neighbor's rabid pomeranian. ;)
I've heard all kinds of suggestions on how to fight a dog. In my opinion, once we are talking about a dog that is (a) large enough and (b) aggressive enough to pose a risk of serious bodily injury, we're looking at a life-threatening situation that's similar to being confronted with a knife or gun. I'm not going to give any suggestions on how to fight a dog unarmed, because I haven't found a great solution that I'm confident enough to pass on.
Instead, I think we have to focus our energies primarily on all of the things we can do to prevent a dog attack. It's great if you have an effective animal control agency in your area that will take care of the problem. I know that many places do have agencies that take this job seriously.
Back home, I can unequivocally say that the local animal control authority is useless. They never (over the span of a decade) took any kind of meaningful action against the neglectful dog owners in my area. When that happens, you may be able to hire a local attorney to help you consider other options, but even then you're looking at an expensive, uphill battle.
If the authorities don't solve the problem, you're looking next at awareness and avoidance. For example, when I visit my family, I never go jogging on back roads in rural Kentucky. I have just had too many encounters with aggressive dogs, and the risk-benefit ratio isn't worth it.
As a last ditch resort, you may have to contemplate physical intervention. There is a lot that could be said here. I'll do my best to be succinct. First, you can't always tell immediately whether a dog is going to be a genuine threat. There's a lot of dogs that will bark endlessly but never actually hurt you. Then there are dogs that will attack you, but will stop as soon as you hurt them. Yes, if you grow up around a lot of dogs, you'll develop some intuition about the level of danger you're in. I think this has to be developed though, and I don't think it's something that can be taught in a class. So as much as I hate to hurt an animal, I also think we have to err on the side of caution.
So, let's say that you do get the intuitive sense that you're facing a dangerous dog. In that case, I think the game plan is to (a) trust your instinct, (b) try to slowly back away from the dog, keeping your eyes on the animal, and (c) prepare to use whatever weapons you have available. I don't know where you live, so I'm not sure what kinds of self-protection weapons are available. Apologies if I end up saying something unhelpful. In my case, if I had any suspicion that I'd be dealing with an aggressive dog that day, I'd carry a concealed firearm (legally, of course). And then we could think about, as a last ditch options, ways to train with the firearm to deploy it effectively in those circumstances.
Anecdotally, I can say that I've had two instances in my life where I had to get physical with dangerous dogs. On the first occasion, I had a suspicion that the dogs would be on the road, so I was carrying a "tire knocker" with me (it's a short club). Two dogs rushed at me and I hit the first one with the club. As soon as I hit him, both of them ran away. On the second occasion, an otherwise completely friendly dog suddenly started acting extremely aggressive/erratic and was threatening one of my relatives. In that case, I made the decision to kick the dog preemptively, and again, the dog immediately ran off. But even though those situations turned out OK, I wouldn't want to rely on those strategies again.
A few other comments:
I mention firearms because if I were going to personally invest time in training against dog attacks, I'd spend 80 to 90% of that time practicing the use of preemptive shots with the firearm. But I don't mean to suggest that the firearm is a shortcut or easy way out. It goes without saying, but I should emphasize that it's essential to have thorough firearms training (from an expert instructor). You have to be able to make split-second decisions about when to take the shot, so that you don't put others in danger.
I personally would not rely on a knife of any kind to defend against a dog. As I mentioned, I have used a club to defend myself against a dog, but I wouldn't do it again. (Of course, at the end of the day, you fight as hard as you can with whatever you can.)
In the USA, the laws that apply to self-defense against animals are much different than those that govern self-protection against people. It does vary somewhat from state to state.
I know it's probably too obvious to say, but attacking a dog unarmed might make sense if you're trying to buy someone else time to escape. But again, you have to be ready for a very grim outcome.
In my life, most of the time I've encountered an aggressive dog, I was able to defuse the situation by backing away slowly.
Lastly, let me emphasize that defense against a dog can very quickly turn into defense against a person. Aggressive and dangerous dogs usually have aggressive and dangerous owners. A few years ago, a man who was affiliated with one of our schools was confronted by an aggressive dog. He shot the dog to protect himself. As soon as the dog's owner found out, the owner came over and murdered the man who had "killed his dog." So any time you defend yourself against an aggressive dog, be on the look out for the dog's owner. It is entirely possible that you will have to defend yourself against the owner right after you finish handling the dog.
These are just my initial thoughts on the matter. Although I have some experience on this, I don't want to come across as an expert on self-protection against dogs. If anyone has found effective, reliable resources on this subject, I'd also be interested in learning more about them.
Best,
-J
Excellent post. For my part it can be tricky working out if a dog is a barker or a biter. Barkers (especially barkers that are barking through fear rather than guarding instinct) can often be made to back off and give you space to escape with assertive body language, a stern tone of voice or cesar Milan style "pssst" and a pointing gesture. I once backed a dog up like that when confronted on a canal tow path. Backed it onto the barge it was guarding and then proceeded on my way (with a couple of instances of needing to turn and back it off again so it didnt get me from behind). Of course a dog that is determined to bite won't be as easy to back off and in that instance i would advocate some sort of weapon, climbing onto a car or kicking as a last resort. I know of one person (Dave Turton as it happens) who killed a dog that was attacking a child with a modified rear nacked choke. Grabbing the tail can help with controlling tge dog (which is one reason many guard breeds are traditionally docked).
deltablues that's an excellent and thorough post. Thank you. Right from the beginning you reference context and this is essential. Here in the UK do don't carry firearms so that solution isn't there for us. However I would suggest also that use of dogs in the way that you describe is also rare here.
Hi All,
Here in the UK, dogs have been reported as the “weapon of choice” for some gangs due to the ability to openly walk with them. There have also been cases of people deliberately employing dogs as weapons during violent crime, and the use of an animal is something that the law considers when deciding on severity of a sentence for violent crime:
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/assault-occasioning-actual-bodily-harm-racially-religiously-aggravated-abh/
Always strikes me as ridiculous that “headbutting” is in that list considering how comparatively ineffective it is when compared to punching, but that’s another topic.
Here’s some links to UK news reports relating to the deliberate use of dogs in violent crime:
https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/29/dog-faces-death-after-owner-used-it-as-a-weapon-to-attack-another-man-10649596/
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/feb/17/dangerous-dogs-as-weapons
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8391909.stm
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/mar/19/dog-killer-chrisdian-johnson-sentence
We will have out of control domestic dogs attacking of their own volition, and we will also have dogs trained and encouraged to act at the behest of owners. I would suspect that the statistical likelihood of the former would be far higher than the later, but a quick search is not revealing solid figures.
When discussing dog bites generally, there is this study: https://jech.bmj.com/content/72/4/331
This news report from last year would also seem to be relevant:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44072175
This is the advice given in the event of dog attack from the RSPCA:
https://www.rspca.org.uk/webContent/staticImages/Downloads/DogAggression.pdf
I’m no expert, but some of the above does not strike me as convincing or realistic i.e. “If the dog does not press home its attack, walk slowly backwards or sideways.”
It may be that most of the above is OK for a domesticated pet that is frightened or agitated, but I can’t see the above working for an aggressive dog during a committed attack.
Something similar to Rory Miller’s demarcation of social violence (dog considers you a threat and is protecting its space) and asocial violence (dog wants to harm or has been trained to harm) could possibly be applied here.
In “Fighter’s Fact Book 2” (a book I provided a chapter for) Loren Christensen included a chapter on dog attack:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fighters-Fact-Book-Fighting-Essentials/dp/1594394849
https://www.amazon.com/Fighters-Fact-Book-Fighting-Essentials/dp/1594394849
https://www.amazon.de/Fighters-Fact-Book-Fighting-Essentials/dp/1594394849
When liaising with Lauren for the book, we discussed his chapter on dog attack and he told me how common it was for police officers to be attacked by dogs in the US (used by criminals as weapons and to protect property and people during raids, searches and arrests). So, if you want the sharp edge advice of someone who has “been there and done that” then Lauren’s work would be the place to go.
Lauren as also produced an e-book on the topic
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Self-Defense-Against-Attack-Loren-Christensen-ebook/dp/B018PUX2DS/
https://www.amazon.com/Self-Defense-Against-Attack-Loren-Christensen-ebook/dp/B018PUX2DS/
https://www.amazon.de/Self-Defense-Against-Attack-Loren-Christensen-ebook/dp/B018PUX2DS/
Wim Demeere discusses the book here: https://www.wimsblog.com/2013/05/self-defense-against-a-dog/
A final thought around weapons: Legalities obviously come into play here. Carrying a knife is not a good idea in the UK as you’d be on the wrong side of the Offensive Weapons Act. I’m also not convinced that a sharp close-range weapon would be that much of an equaliser as the dog as a mouthful of the same, as well as the issue of accessibility. Here in the UK, where is rains all the time, a strudy umbrella could provide an improvised thrusting weapon when closed, and a shield of sorts when opened. It would also be in hand as well, so the issue of accessibility is removed. Chairs, carried jackets, bags, etc could also provide barriers, weapons and distractions.
It’s definitely a topic we should discuss more and if anyone else knows of interesting and useful sources, please share.
All the best,
Iain
I can't help thinking of the nonsense advice that did the rounds when i was a kid.....grab the dog's front legs, pull them apart and you'll rip their heart. Seemed plausible when I was 9!
I heard that as a kid too … which was pre-internet, so it makes you wonder where that urban myth originated and how it spread so widely? Whatever it was, you and I were obviously exposed to the same source :-)
All the best,
Iain
Ah the dog's front legs ; rmember it well ; as the dog leaps at you grab the legs and pull apart and it breaks the chest bone; I think I saw it illistrated in a book as well but cant recall which book. Year's later talking to dog handler mentioned this in conversation only for him to burst out laughting!
Tau,
I really appreciate the feedback on my earlier post. Thank you. This has been a very valuable thread for me as well. I'll definitely be reading and studying the links that Iain provided.
And +1 on the problem of dealing with myths in this area. When I was really dealing with this problem a lot, there was very little good info out there. I'd see a lot of stuff like: "First, let the dog bite the meaty part of your forearm. That way you can gouge out his eyes with your free hand!" And that would be pretty much the extent of their advice. I never heard the one about splitting the chest bone apart, but I have to say that's the best one yet.
It seems this is a UK myth that those of a certain age (those in the prime of life :-)) were exposed to. There must have been a common source for this, and I’d love to know what it was. My guess is one of the “survival” books that were popular at the time, or maybe a magazine article? Either way, it certainly got around :-)
All the best,
Iain
It did. We're a couple of years different in age (IIRC) and from opposite ends of England but I'd bet most school kids in the 70's and 80's heard that meme about grabbing a dogs legs :-)
I also heard the myth about pulling the legs apart. I was young enough to believe it in the '90s and early '00s, and I grew up in the US and Turkey...I want to say I heard it from an American, but I'm not sure on which continent!
Well since we're covering myths: https://youtu.be/OhJP0lERFek