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JD
JD's picture
Over confident/aggressive pupils

Hi all, hope you're well.

So a quick question regarding pupils...

I've been teaching for good few years now and I've had all sorts of people come through the door to try out and train karate, old, young, big, small, they all bring something different, whether it be physically or by their character and appoach to training. 95% of students are genuine, easy going and non egotistical, they are there to learn, challenge themselves and most importantly... enjoy!

I have had karate ka's from other clubs, black belts etc. MMA fighters, semi professional fighters (MMA, Boxing, Muay thai) and enjoyed sparring and getting stuck in to see what minerals they have and to healthily compare abilities and styles. I enjoy a good scrap and seem to be pretty proficient at dealing with any  ''Negative outside invaders'', so far anyway. Most of the people who do wish to ''prove'' something or come with ego don't stick at it and last no more than a few sessions. 

Now the above is all good, but as a Sensei I believe that consideration and respect, along with professionalism is important, I understand I can pull a pupil to one side who may pose a danger to the club or themselves and put things into perspective through a well pointed discussion, and, if the need be, not allow them to train and send them on their way without physical intervention. 

I like to join in on sparring with pupils, I believe it creates good camaraderie and team attitude, not to mention it breeds a healthy respect between Sensei and pupils. I recently had a young lad (21yrs) join the club, he has a bit of an attitude problem and a ''testy'' persona, whenever we spar he seems to go up a gear and push the boundaries of semi contact sparring and the relaxed learning environment we all promote at the club. This individual is a white belt but has previous experience in MMA, when sparring recently he stepped up his efforts and came in strong, I initiallly absorbed the attack and tried to control the pace by staying relaxed and light, however he tried again, I returned the love and dropped him using a solid roundhouse to the mid section and a good zuki to the nose (Machida special), respect seems to of been restored and all is good.

My question is, has any other instructor had similar experiences of overly aggressive/confident pupils who have ego and something to prove, mainly towards the instructor?

If so, how did you tackle and combat it?

If a pupil has a nasty and malicious side that wants to train and you know teaching them a combative skill set is only going to make them more dangerous, do you have a moral obligation to turn them away? Why give a vicious dog sharper teeth?

Please understand, I'm a very considerate and caring person, I encourage my pupils and my number 1 priority is to aid the development of my pupils both mentally and physically. I retaliated and threw it into a ''higher gear'' to calm this particular individual. I hate bullies and those Sensei's who think they've something to prove by being heavy handed with pupils, completely unnecessary and I'm not one of them. 

Just interested on other people's experiences and views.

Best regards,

JD

 

David Price
David Price's picture

Been there in the past a couple of times. I ask nicely a couple of times and then if they persist, I have done pretty much as you described above. 

Josh Pittman
Josh Pittman's picture

My most pressing reason for responding to this post is that I feel strongly about one of your question. You should definitely refuse to teach people who may pose a threat to others, either in or out of your school. My instructor has told me about how his instructor cured him of his bullying attitude by sparring roughly. Another of my instructors once put me in my place by kneeing me hard in the stomach because I was being too aggressive during a technique demonstration. It can work. Do you have a moral obligation to not arm dangerous people? Absolutely. If you teach self-defense, your ultimate goal should be to reduce the net amount of violence in the world. That's why I like the approach of people on this forum, who emphasize escape as the goal in these situations. That avoids simplifying the moral question into "Can violence be acceptable" by changing the framework.

JD
JD's picture

Hi Josh,

Thanks for your reply and input. Yeah, the majority of my thoughts agree exactly with what you say, it's best not to give these types of individuals the tools to carry out more bullying or violence. Although there's a part of me that feels maybe some of these characters need guidance and something to respect, in having that, they might be less likely to be so violent. Like you mentioned above regarding your instructor, I'm sure he must be a person you respect and gel with, otherwise you wouldn't have stuck around to be taught by him, but had he been cast aside and not allowed to train (knocked around with rough sparring) he wouldn't of become an instructor that taught and that you respect, so maybe some, not all, need a chance because they don't know a better way? 

It's a tough decision to make, I'd feel bad for denying someone the chance to spark an interest in karate that could give them so much through their lives, but alternatively, I'd feel bad if that same someone used what I had taught them in non-justified violence.

I think if you give them chance to adapt their view and attitude but they choose to carry on being violent/aggressive after a good few sessions, they should be pulled aside and stopped from training. At least with this approach you've tried and give them the best opportunity to better themselves. 

Thanks again and best regards,

JD

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

No one has a right to train with any given group. If an individual is harmful to the productivity, safety, reputation and atmosphere of a given group, then it’s in everyone’s interest they be told they are not welcome. If a person wants to benefit from what a given group has to offer, then they need to play a part in maintaining the health of that group. It’s two-way street. The vast majority of people get this, and I’d not be prepared to waste my time on the small minority who don’t. It only takes one “bad apple” to ruin a club if certain attitudes are not checked. My loyalty and responsibility lie with the existing members. If you want to join us, we are delighted to have you, but we expect certain things from you. If you are not able or willing to conduct yourself as our community expects, then you will not be permitted to be a part of it. Training with us is not an automatic right. We expect everyone to contribute to the group being productive, safe and happy.

All the best,

Iain

JD
JD's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
It only takes one “bad apple” to ruin a club if certain attitudes are not checked.

I agree, this is why I wanted to post and get some validation from other instructors to back up my existing view. 

Iain Abernethy wrote:
No one has a right to train with any given group.

Something not to lose sight of, just because we run a club for people to attend, it doesn't mean they're automatically entitled to join if they don't have the right approach. I can imagine some of the orginal Japanese ''masters'' would be quick to turn someone away if they didn't feel comfortable with them. 

Thanks for the reply...

Best regards,

JD

Neil Babbage
Neil Babbage's picture

This isn't answering your question, but you do need to be cautious about joining in during training. Somebody should be watching what is going on and ensuring training remains safe - insurers tend to be a bit antsy about paying out on an injury when the insured instructor was found not to be supervising training. 

David Price
David Price's picture

I’ve mellowed slightly in regard to “disciplining” people with attitude, as of course it’s really the right way handle it (last time I did it I was little more than a kid myself . I agree with the general sentiment of not teaching dangerous people or arming them with tools to hurt others.

JD
JD's picture

Hi Neil,

Yeah I 100% agree, luckily I'm fortunate to have other instructors who attend and if I join in then they call and monitor the sparring. Health and safety and making sure we're covered from an insurance point of view is a high priority for me. Nonetheless, it's a good point and one that can be easily overlooked by an eager instructor. 

Here's another question though. Thinking about Sensei's training with pupils, is that something to be cautious over, can it encourage over familiarity between pupil and Sensei, blurring the respect line and difference between the two? Maybe Sensei's shouldn't spar with certain pupils or lower grade students, what's your thoughts on that? 

Thanks and best regards,

JD 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

JD wrote:
Thinking about Sensei's training with pupils, is that something to be cautious over, can it encourage over familiarity between pupil and Sensei, blurring the respect line and difference between the two? Maybe Sensei's shouldn't spar with certain pupils or lower grade students, what's your thoughts on that?

The instructor is there to teach, and they should not be leaving most of the class unsupervised as they train in themselves. As has been pointed out, there could be problems if an injury happened and class was effectively unsupervised. That said, away from formal classes, it’s good for the students to work with the instructor and see that they can “walk the walk”. It’s even good for the class to see the instructor in action within the class; even if it is just for limited time periods. That is sure to increase respect as opposed to diminish it.

I have quite a few students who are also training partners … and I’m a training partner for a few of my teachers. My teachers don’t ask me to do anything they don’t do themselves. Likewise, I don’t ask my students to do anything I don’t do. I feel this increases mutual respect. We should lead from the front. This promotes a “first among equals” culture which I personally prefer over enforced and rigid hierarchy.

All the best,

Iain

JD
JD's picture

Hi Iain, 

Absolutely, but as previously stated, I'm fortunate enough to have other fully insured and assessed instructors who are able to monitor and control the sparring if I do join in. But a valid and important point nonetheless, and I couldn't agree more.

Yeah creating that mutual respect and team attitude from parcipating in drill work, demonstrations and sparring with pupils is important, like you say, being able to ''walk the walk'' is good for students to see. 

''First among equals'' that's a fitting phrase for the menatlity we should be promoting, I'll have to use that one in class. 

Thanks for your thoughts, I enjoy getting a balanced and accurate view from fellow Karate ka's and instructors. 

Best regards, 

JD

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

JD wrote:
I'm fortunate enough to have other fully insured and assessed instructors who are able to monitor and control the sparring if I do join in.

We have a similar thing where there are four of us able to take that supervisory role. I do know plenty of instructors who like to join in when they don’t have such things in place though.  

JD wrote:
''First among equals'' that's a fitting phrase for the mentality we should be promoting, I'll have to use that one in class.

Other groups like to keep things more formal, but the approach works for us. We have people in an instructor role of course, but there are no “titles” or formalities around that. They are simply the right people for that job. I’d not say others were wrong if a more solidified hierarchy worked for them, but it’s not something for us.

JD wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts, I enjoy getting a balanced and accurate view from fellow Karate ka's and instructors.

Likewise and me too :-)

All the best,

Iain

PASmith
PASmith's picture

I think a club or style where the instructor doesn't pitch in and spar or drill from time to time can start getting into mock hero worship where that instructor's abilities can get exaggerated. Because there's no barometer or evidence of a level.

What the instructor can do, what they can't do and more importantly what they can teach you how to do should be upfront and open IMHO and everyone pitching in together helps foster that. Of course it takes actual palpable skill and an ego being in check to do that.

If you can't actually spar, drill or use your "skills" then you won't want your students to see that. It's easier to stand at the front and not pitch in. Equally even if you do have skills you can still have an 18 stone builder walk in with a no BS attitude and give you a hard time on the mats. And that can be hard on an ego. Personally I think it's more healthy to aknowledge that ambiguity rather that try and foster some sort of super human persona.

Also, if all someone does is teach others all the time (and they find it hard to find time for their own training) they can stagnate and become jaded. I know my own instructor is glad that he now has some insured black belts to take sessions and supervise sparring because he now gets to join in as a student now and then.

JD
JD's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
I do know plenty of instructors who like to join in when they don’t have such things in place though.

One of my older instructors used to do exactly that. A blast from the past would turn up, nostalgia from the old days would kick in and they'd be sparring whilst the rest of the class was unsupervised, dangerous and irresponsible for paying students. Luckily there were no injuries as a result. 

Iain Abernethy wrote:
Other groups like to keep things more formal, but the approach works for us. We have people in an instructor role of course, but there are no “titles” or formalities around that. They are simply the right people for that job. I’d not say others were wrong if a more solidified hierarchy worked for them, but it’s not something for us.

Again, totally agree. I think it's easier to use that form/method of teaching and communicating with adults and higher grades, although I find a slightly more disciplined approach more beneficial when teaching kids and younger ones. 

Thanks again and best regards,

JD

JD
JD's picture

PASmith wrote:
I think a club or style where the instructor doesn't pitch in and spar or drill from time to time can start getting into mock hero worship where that instructor's abilities can get exaggerated. Because there's no barometer or evidence of a level.

Interesting point, sadly this happens quite often. Also, on the other end of the scale, pupils can sometimes start to question the ability of an instructor and raise doubt in their own minds ''what can my instructor do?'' - ''Can he/she practise what they preach?'' so it's good to demonstrate, drill and even spar (in appropriate conditions) for/with students in my personal opinion.  

PASmith wrote:
Personally I think it's more healthy to aknowledge that ambiguity rather that try and foster some sort of super human persona.

Nail on the head. This takes unnecessary pressure off yourself and creates a much more pleasant environment to learn and train in for everyone!

PASmith wrote:
Also, if all someone does is teach others all the time (and they find it hard to find time for their own training) they can stagnate and become jaded. I know my own instructor is glad that he now has some insured black belts to take sessions and supervise sparring because he now gets to join in as a student now and then.

2 nails on the head! I used to have this difficulty, now there's more instructors and high grades to stay back for extra (more intense) training, I have a healthy balance of teaching and not going stagnant all in one.

Best regards,

JD 

Tau
Tau's picture

As a general rule as in instructor I don't engage in training with students. I admit I do at times, especially for sparring in the Kickboxing class but I have trust high grades to watch the mats.

For my own training.... I love putting on the white belt and going to learn new things.

Ian H
Ian H's picture

I appreciate the sensei who engages in all the training, rather than standing and directing.  But the sensei also (as mentioned) needs to do so only in a way that doesn't detract from his ability to supervise the whole class.  

Of course, I also have different expectations of a 30-year-old sensei and a 60-year-old sensei in terms of physical abilities.  We all need to adjust our training and our aproach to karate throughout the ageing process.  And I'd much rather have my beloved and highly-qualified sensei adjust his training methods and degree of his personal involvement in the training as he continues to age ... rather than retiring because he can't do everything he could do thirty years ago.

JD wrote:
I recently had a young lad (21yrs) join the club, he has a bit of an attitude problem and a ''testy'' persona, whenever we spar he seems to go up a gear and push the boundaries of semi contact sparring and the relaxed learning environment we all promote at the club. This individual is a white belt but has previous experience in MMA, when sparring recently he stepped up his efforts and came in strong, I initiallly absorbed the attack and tried to control the pace by staying relaxed and light, however he tried again, I returned the love and dropped him using a solid roundhouse to the mid section and a good zuki to the nose (Machida special), respect seems to of been restored and all is good.

Is is just with you that this student goes up a gear to test the boundaries, or with other students as well?  I get the impression from your comment that it's just you.  It may be that he mistakenly thinks you respect the additional challenge of the more vigorous sparring.  Or perhaps he is looking for more of a challenge/outlet than the normal sparring rate at your dojo offers, and he thinks that with you (you can "handle it" after all) he can use that next gear?  

One thing you didn't mention ... or if you did I missed it ... is whether or not you talked to him first about his overly-agressive cholce of sparring level when he's with you.   "Hey, I appreciate your desire to really go for it, but ... we don't spar that hard, not even with me, so I need you to turn it down a notch or two.  I don't want to go to work with a black eye tomorrow any more than anyone else here.  Thanks."  If that doesn't work, follow it up with a "dude ... not cool!" and then the next time gets him out the door.  

JD
JD's picture

Ian H wrote:

Is is just with you that this student goes up a gear to test the boundaries, or with other students as well?

Yeah just me.

Ian H wrote:

It may be that he mistakenly thinks you respect the additional challenge of the more vigorous sparring.    

It's a good way of looking at it, maybe so. I do feel it's more wanting to test the ''top dog'' a bit of natural primitive male behaviour. 

Ian H wrote:

One thing you didn't mention ... or if you did I missed it ... is whether or not you talked to him first about his overly-agressive cholce of sparring level when he's with you.   "Hey, I appreciate your desire to really go for it, but ... we don't spar that hard, not even with me, so I need you to turn it down a notch or two.  I don't want to go to work with a black eye tomorrow any more than anyone else here.  Thanks."  If that doesn't work, follow it up with a "dude ... not cool!" and then the next time gets him out the door.  

Talking to someone instead of using physical means is a good way to go, I agree. Although since tackling this issue via upping the gear in sparring, I've had no further complications and his ego/respect seems to be restored.  

Thanks for your thoughts, it's a good perspective and I agree with you. 

Best regards,

Josh