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dhogsette
dhogsette's picture
Wrist Grab Bunkai for Pinan Shodan

Hello,

We have been working a cross wrist grab application drill for the opening movements of Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan. This video also incorporates target mitts to supplement the counter striking practice. We talked about the importance of pre-emptive striking but also how the enemy may do the same to us! This drill seeks to train us for that possibility. Enjoy!

Best,

David

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Thanks for sharing Dave! That’s a nice drill. I like the use of the release and the way you have contextualized it.

All the best,

Iain

Marc
Marc's picture

"Nice fun drill!" :)

And a new great application I hadn't seen before. Thanks for sharing your Ideas and drills.

Take care,

Marc  

dhogsette
dhogsette's picture

Thank you, again, Iain and Marc. Recently, I remembered my Sensei back at Ohio State Karate Club in the late 1980s, Richard McCulty, showed us a cross hand grab release, and I got to thinking about that release in the context of an attempted pre-emptive strike by the enemy. And...voila! LOL. I really appreciate the support and encouragement.

Best,

David

Josh Pittman
Josh Pittman's picture

Hi, Dave. Thanks for all these videos. I've really enjoyed seeing these various interpretations of the same form this semester. I like this one, so I tried to pressure test it, but I couldn't get the grip reverse to work. Sometimes I could pull on the grip break, but the reverse was really unreliable. Here's a link to a video of me trying to pull it off against my wife (thanks to her for helping even though martial arts isn't her hobby):

 

You'll see that I do get the reverse to work at one point and that the grip breaks frequently. However, when I tried the same move against a male friend who is taller than I am and has a pretty good grip, it worked less often. So my question is this: am I doing the technique incorrectly? Should I keep my hand closer to my body? Make a bigger circle? Thanks for any advice!

Also, the version I practice is slightly different. Here's what I was hoping would result from a successful grip reverse/ (At one point I say "shoulder jam," but as you'll see, I meant "elbow jam."

 

Happy holidays,

Josh

dhogsette
dhogsette's picture

Josh,

Great job pressure testing the scenario. Remember that kata provide strategies and tactics for various scenarios, and we do not have to be limited to the exact sequence of the kata. For me, the most important tactic in this scenario is getting your hand free and counter striking. However, if the enemy is raining down punches, you have to do more than just cover. So, circle off center line (as you were doing), and use "small circle" movements to achieve the "chest block" motion. Also, keep your elbow in close to your own body for more power. This motion should help reposition the enemy's body and make it harder for him/her to punch you.

However, you should also be striking as well. One point that didn't make it into the video is that you don't have to wait to strike just because the kata says do these few moves then strike... Since you were in tight already, I would start striking as soon as your wrist is grabbed, then perform the grab reversal or the wrist release. Especially if the attacker is much larger and/or stronger than you, you may have to strike a few times before trying a release or reversal movement. Again, the kata provides strategies and tactics. We make adjustments and adaptations within particular circumstances.

Hope that helps a bit.

Best,

David

Josh Pittman
Josh Pittman's picture

Thanks, David. I'll be sure to try it again soon.

Anf
Anf's picture

I'm very skeptical about the standard set of wrist grab escapes. Every one I've seen so far seems to have the same inherent weaknesses.

I don't think they are realistic.

Who attacks by grabbing someone's wrist and waiting? OK, I've actually seen it many times. Usually in the form of a domestic between a man and a woman. Nobody wants to hurt each other. One grabs the others wrist in a futile attempt to persuade them to comply. I've never witnessed it in a combat situation. And I'm sorry to all my martial arts brethren, but a wrist grab is rarely effective even if the target has no martial arts training at all. The inate instinctive response is usually enough to dislodge somebody that doesn't really intend to fight, and if the other really does intend to fight, it wouldn't start from a wrist grab.

I think I read it in Funakoshi's book that the wrist grab was in the 'self defence for women' section. If the attacker's intent is to drag you somewhere with no desire to inflict harm, then I think it could work. Otherwise I suspect, until someone can demonstrate otherwise, that wrist grab escapes are generally show moves, a concept that sadly seems to be gaining ground in martial arts.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Anf wrote:
Otherwise I suspect, until someone can demonstrate otherwise, that wrist grab escapes are generally show moves, a concept that sadly seems to be gaining ground in martial arts.

I would disagree with this, but I understand where you are coming from. I think you’re right that an isolated wrist grab is not realistic. However, wrist grabs happen in-fight all the time. Wrists get gripped when:

1) A weak area has been attacked by you and the enemy is defending i.e. you put a thumb in their eye, attack the groin with your hand, seize the throat, etc and this prompts the enemy to grab the wrist to control the attacking limb.

2) In the dialog stages, you have your fence up and the enemy grabs the wrist to create an attacking opportunity.

3) The arm is grabbed to prevent escape as you try to break free from a clinch.

4) You are covering up and the enemy tries to create an opening by grabbing the wrists and stripping the arms out of the way.

5) Wrists are gripped during the application of all kinds of grappling methods i.e. arm drags, locks, traps, some takedowns, loads of counters, etc.

And so on.

It’s not right to say that wrist grabs don’t happen. It happens lots. When people are showing an insulated wrist grab, they are often isolating the technique to work on it specifically. It will be put back into context in other drills and in live sparring.

If people mistake the isolation of a specific technique as an unrealistic “scenario-based” drill, they are failing to see the practise of the technique is part of a wider training matrix. Of course, there are some people who do think that isolating a method is all that is required; but they are wrong to do so. Just because something is trained in an unrealistic way, by people who don’t understand the need for an integrated training matrix, does not mean the method is unrealistic as a result.

I believe that dealing with wrist grabs is as important as any other form of grab. It happens a lot and we can’t afford to lose control of one of our arms through not studying such counters and escapes. Such methods need to be drilled realistically and in context, in addition to simply learning the nuts and bolts of the technique, but they are important in my view and not just “show techniques”.

All the best,

Iain

Anf
Anf's picture

I hear what you say Iain. What I guess I was trying to say is that the concept of a wrist being grabbed and held long enough for a technique to be applied is unrealistic.

I totally understand that we isolate the very specific principles in order to train them, but a part of training that is often missing in my experience, and I know this is not always the case, is what our kung fu brethren call push hands. Ie sensitivity drills to learn to feel for and adapt to a rapidly changing situation. Too often in our training, we take the format, he does that so I do this. That's great until it doesn't work first time, and then the response is invariably the belief that someone did it wrong. I prefer the format he did that so I tried this, realised very early it wasn't working for any of many possible reasons, so seemlessly adapted into this. But that's less catchy;)

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

I'll add a quick comment:  wrist grab defense is also important for anyone who carries a weapon on a regular basis.  As in, you reach for your firearm (or taser or whatever) and someone tries to jam the draw by grabbing the wrist.    

Also, in case you're interested, here's an older thread where this topic was discussed a bit (just four or five posts on the subject):  https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/considering-wrist-grabs-karate-and-aikido

Just my two cents--looks like everything else has already been covered in this thread.

All best,

J

dhogsette
dhogsette's picture

I think Iain covered the issue well, so no need to elaborate that point further. I try to set up drills within specific contexts. As Iain notes above, there are a variety of reasons for wrists to be grabbed. Another example, not listed, is separating you from someone you are with to make it easier to jump one or both--this happened to one of my senseis in NY. He was in Manhattan with his wife, and a guy grabbed his wrist and pulled him away from his wife, but he reacted quickly, using a small circle movement (like the chest-block motion in the opening moves of Pinan Shodan), and that was enough to release the grab. The guys realized they attacked someone who was capable of resisting and fighting back, and they ran.

Anyway, this drill trains scenarios in which someone grabs the lead hand of your fence or guard, but it can be applicable in other contexts as well. So, I set up the drill that way. There are other wrist grab releases we train in which the set up is different--high wrist grab as the enemy's response to your jambing a thumb in his eye while in the clinch, or low wrist grab as the enemy's response to your grasping the genitals in a clinch. These are reasonable and "realistic" scenarios that do happen.

Also, we must remember that these particular videos show drills at one part of the the training matrix. These are important elements that must be trained. Eventually, you apply the principles in live drills, where it gets sloppy and you figure out what seems to work for you in which contexts and why. It's the live training that we work towards after having worked the other drills. And, this is the one major challenge of my current teaching context that I'm struggling with. Since I'm teaching a physical education class, I only have the group for 15 weeks. It's challenging enought to get them through a kata and work various application drills. About the time they are ready to begin some low-key live training, the semester is finished. But, this semester, I had about a week and a half (three class sessions) at the end in which we did some live training. And it worked out pretty well. But, that really isn't sufficient. Anyway, training matrix is key, in my view, as is realizing that any one drill is necessarily at one point of the training matrix continuum.

Best,

David

Anf
Anf's picture
dhogsette wrote:
He was in Manhattan with his wife, and a guy grabbed his wrist and pulled him away from his wife, but he reacted quickly, using a small circle movement (like the chest-block motion in the opening moves of Pinan Shodan), and that was enough to release the grab.

Absolutely. No doubt. Was this guy an advanced level, like post 1st dan karate ka or anything?

My point is, based on my own observations, which includes seeing many incidents when I was a younger man, and being in a few myself, is that you don't need martial arts training to escape a wrist grab. The required motion is built right in. If a wrist grab is effective, it is only effective for a split second anyway. Unless the person whose wrist has been grabbed is happy to let their assailant keep hold, which can be useful, as now you know where at least one of your opponents hands is.

Would I say there's no point training wrist grab escapes? Absolutely not. They are good fun and they teach various useful principles. I do think though that we can get too hung up on details of a technique which we naturally already have. This doesn't just apply to grab escapes. I think in our training, depending on what we are training for, we might want to ask ourselves occasionally, is this technique helpful in moving me towards my personal goals? And should I persist with taking this literally in the hope of one day, perhaps in 30 years or so, archiving enlightenment and suddenly it works without effort, or should I take on board the principles behind the technique, play with those principles, experiment with willing training partners, and make it my own?

Marc
Marc's picture

Anf wrote:

My point is, based on my own observations, which includes seeing many incidents when I was a younger man, and being in a few myself, is that you don't need martial arts training to escape a wrist grab. The required motion is built right in.

I understand your point, but only partly agree.

From my experience of teaching wrist grab escapes, there seem to be "naturals" who do it well intuitively and then there are those who don't. The naturals don't need much training, maybe just a little refinement. The others' natural response to a wrist grab is usually some kind of frantic pulling upwards and outwards, using all the wrong muscles and angles. They benefit a lot from learning the basics of wrist grab escapes so they can get their hands free just as swiftly as the "naturals".

Kind regards,

Marc

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Anf wrote:
What I guess I was trying to say is that the concept of a wrist being grabbed and held long enough for a technique to be applied is unrealistic.

Not sure I follow you? If the enemy lets go of their own volition, then there is no problem (with the grip itself). The hand is free again. If they keep hold, then we have to make them let go. By definition, the wrist needs to be held long enough for the escape to be applied. Otherwise, there is no grip to escape from.

Some grips are fleeting. Others are solidly applied. For example, if it’s a response to an eye attack, the enemy’s grip tends to be pretty solid because the need such a grip to take and keep the thump away from their eye.

Anf wrote:
… you don't need martial arts training to escape a wrist grab. The required motion is built right in.

I disagree. Grab someone and they will try to escape, but it does not mean they will do so efficiently. A person without training will try to punch, but they won’t do it in an optimal way. All martial things are improved by training.

Anf wrote:
If a wrist grab is effective, it is only effective for a split second anyway. Unless the person whose wrist has been grabbed is happy to let their assailant keep hold …

Or their ability to escape is not effective enough. While a wrist grab is not a finisher in and of itself, it can lead to finishers as per the previous post.

Anf wrote:
Would I say there's no point training wrist grab escapes? Absolutely not. They are good fun and they teach various useful principles.

And they are needed combatively. For example, drill live escape scenarios and I guarantee grabs to wrists will appear pretty quickly in the chaos of trying to break free. Things change fast, but wrist grabs will be a part of the mix.

Anf wrote:
I do think though that we can get too hung up on details of a technique which we naturally already have …

We don’t naturally have optimum skills in anything. All natural proclivities can be improved upon through training. If that was not the case, we would not have martial arts because we would all be optimal fighters from birth.

Anf wrote:
should I persist with taking this literally in the hope of one day, perhaps in 30 years or so, archiving enlightenment and suddenly it works without effort, or should I take on board the principles behind the technique, play with those principles, experiment with willing training partners, and make it my own?

You should learn the principles. It’s vital we do. But those principles are not innate. We need techniques to illustrate those principles. They would be forever intangible and ethereal otherwise. We then study the various ways in which those principles can be manifest and develop / test our ability to enact them in live drills. There is no hoping or waiting for skills to magically appear. We develop them through structured training programs.

I do get what you are saying about wrist grabs being drilled unrealistically or such methods being practised devoid of context. That’s definitely an issue. Where I disagree is the notion that wrist grip escapes / counters have no combative use or that the skills are associated with them are so innate as to invalidate the need to practise them. I do agree about the need to move beyond technique to the principles upon which the technique is based; but we need techniques in order to do that.

All the best,

Iain

Anf
Anf's picture

I take on board everything that has been said. But purely in the interest of exploring this, I'd like to consider the difference between training and reality.

It has been mentioned that some people struggle with the wrist grab escapes. I see that too, in the training hall. There are many reasons why I think that is the case.

In the training hall, let's say I'm working with a complete beginner. I am talking to them calmly and respectfully. Even friendly I hope. We might even have a bit of a laugh together. I take hold of their wrist, nd explain the technique. Or I ask them to take my wrist and I demonstrate the escape. Probably we'll do it both ways several times before the beginner starts to get the basic motion down. Unless they happen to be stronger than me, chances are they'll fail to escape until I surreptitiously loosen my grip and make a great show of being unable to keep hold, just to boost their confidence.

But let's analyse that situation a bit.

Firstly, it's all very friendly. There is no sense of urgency. The adrenalin is not coarsing. The inner animal is asleep.

Secondly, I'm asking the beginner to do something very specific, in isolation, and think about it. How many here can ride a bike? How many could still ride that bike if instead of just doing it, they concentrated hard on every single move? When do we apply pressure to the right pedal? When do we relax the left leg? When we want to turn, how much do we lean and how much do we turn the handlebars again? What was it we do if we sense a wobble to the left? There's a lot to think about if you don't just do it.

Third, we're asking the beginner not to improvise. If you watch an untrained person escape a wrist grab, they rarely just try to pull away, like the non panicking, calm beginner does. They move explosively. They will often sink their bodyweight. They will often lash out with their other hand or their feet or knees. I even once saw a lady deliver a headbutt. All of this happens explosively with full force, and is often backed by some very attention grabbing verbal that makes it impossible for their attacker to believe that just maybe it's not absolutely everybody in earshot that now knows what they're doing.

dhogsette
dhogsette's picture

I must agree with Iain here. Indeed, humans do have some instincts built in, like other animals, but effective wrist release and other such combative principles are not innate. For example, the natural response to being hit repeatedly is to curl up and turn away from the attack, exposing the back, often called the fetal position. That is not a constructive combative principle, but it is an innate response. One must train to overcome that response. Similarly with the basic wrist grab. I've done this demonstration with students. Without letting them know what I'm about to do, I will suddenly grab the wrist, and usually one of three things happen:

  1. shock and freeze--a normal response even for highly trained people
  2. tug of war--the person starts tugging and pulling to get away; rarely if ever works
  3. short freeze and then the tugging and pulling response

Dogs do the same thing. Grab a dog's front paw, and it will start pulling and tugging. When that doesn't work, it usually bites. LOL.

The point is we do not have sound combative principles built in. We have the freeze response (which can work in some circumstances), flight, or fight. But fighting or fleeing well is not innate. We need to train to develop our fleeing and fighting skills. (Some may think we can naturally run away, but that is not the case--running well, intellegently, and tactically is a learned skill.)

And, I'm still convinced, that the training matrix is key, as I've mentioned before and as Iain has explained passionately in various places. Interestingly, we see a version of the training matrix in the other animal species. Animals have various instincts built in, but they, too, must train tactics and techniques, and they do so through varying degress of play. For example, puppies will play at stalking, hunting, pouncing, attacking, fighting, running, and chasing. These are compliant drills. As they age, the play becomes more intense and more non-compliant. In some species, pecking orders and dominance are established through aggressive bouts that are similar to sparring. Then, the skills trained through these various play and "drills" are used in real encounters. Those that "trained well" and survive can then pass their genes on. I don't wish to push the comparison too far, but I think on a basic level, it makes sense and is illustrative that our own training must involve different components of the training matrix.

Best,

David