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diadicic
diadicic's picture
How do I handle it?

We have a new student for the past 7 months. Now he's a new student to us, but he's a black belt in another system of Korean/Shotokan mix. Sometimes when he speaks to our other students he'll tell them some of the techniques were doing is wrong. We should do them differently because the way he was taught to do them was faster. I don’t see them as faster. They almost look identical. Now we're primarily Okinawan Shorin Ryu. But we're our own version of it. My teacher and I have made changes to our training over the past 10 years. What bothers me is not the fact that he interjected his opinion and tries to show other students his way. What bothers me is then to have other students say oh yes that's much better. No I'm not the teacher and it is not my school. I want to ask this student why are you here? Another issue we had is when we were sparring doing grips trying to get each other out of a circle, We call it Tagumi. He used a little throw bringing me to the floor. I took him with me.  ;) But he knew that the drill didn't involve throwing it all. It was a mutually agreed-upon set of training criteria and he broke that agreement. And I wore it and didn't retaliate in any way.(Well maybe a little). And now although my teacher doesn't see it I just have this feeling that although he's a nice person his intentions are not good with us. I am also starting to lose my patience with other students. If they feel that they like the way he trains, go there. Maybe because our classes are loosely structured it invites this kind of activity but we never had this problem before. I glad I am not the teacher. I even thought of leaving and going to do something else for a while. Am I being too critical? or maybe I'm thinking of this in the wrong light? Please, anyone, give me another way to look at this. Training has become not enjoyable for me.

Dom

Neil Babbage
Neil Babbage's picture

Tell him to stop doing it, or leave - his choice.

Anf
Anf's picture

I know how you feel. We have an individual in our club that came from a different style. Actually we have quite a few, and I'm one of them, but whereas most accept that they're here to learn the style taught in our club, in accordance with our club rules and guidelines, we have one that not only keeps bringing their previous style into play, but is also blatantly disrespectful to pretty much all of us.

This doesn't help you. I just want you to know you're not alone in being a bit upset about this kind of thing. I'm not sure what you can do, other than try to seek opportunity from it. You don't have to change your technique to match theirs, but it's certainly worth listening to them and watching them. Maybe they'll give you another option. Likewise they might expose a weakness in some aspect of your development. They already have. They took you down. That only worked because you didn't expect it. You took them down with you. That only worked because he/she didn't expect it because in their previous training, their compliant partner doesn't grab hold as they fall. Both of you learned something. I know it's not nice when trust is not there, but the silver lining is that it can be very educational.

Paul_L
Paul_L's picture

A recent addition to our club is a 2nd dan instructor from the local Shotokan club. He wanted to learn more self defence as in his club they don’t really do very much at all. He comes to training wearing a white belt and trains next to us kyu grades and generally gets stuck in. He has never corrected anyone and is happy to take instruction from any of the dan grades and coaching from any of the kyu grades. My point is that I believe that he trains with us because he wants to learn, not to prove something and massage his ego. He has very readiy become one of us and there is mutual respect. Sorry if these seems a little harsh and admittedly my knowledge of your situation is just from what you have written.  

Have you told your sensei about how you feel? Is he approachable?

diadicic
diadicic's picture

My Teacher is very approachable, and I believe he knows of the situation but has a soft spot in his heart for all his students.  I can't get a read on what this student is trying to accomplish.  I yes I think it is a trust issue.  I am normally pretty good at reading people and getting to trust them,  I don't like the fact that I don't trust him.  I don't know what I am going to do.  It might be time for me to move on, and that's ok too.

Dom

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Diadicic

Paul_L wrote:
A recent addition to our club is a 2nd dan instructor from the local Shotokan club. He wanted to learn more self defence as in his club they don’t really do very much at all.

I have exactly same situation in my club :) going back to the topic, as I'm quite relaxed at my club just like your teacher I think some people taking kindness for a weakness. I encounter few people who tried to instruct my students, my approach always was honesty. I tell them that in y club I'm open for new or different ways of doing techniques, and I'm very happy to talk with them about it, but the lower grades have to stick to my curriculum. Then I ask them to show the technique and prove that it is better than mine, usually they fail in explaining or I'm able to show that mine work for me better.

Most of the time there is no ill intentions behind this behaviour, as they are the higher grade they are used to correct people in their previous club so after a honest chat they accept changes.

Kind regards

Les

Chris R
Chris R's picture

Firstly: Don't leave training because of him. If you can deal with the problem then you will end up as a stronger person. Anyway, this is how I would respond:

If he cannot co-operate enough to do a drill properly, the instructor should be dealing with that. You said he has a "soft spot in his heart for all his students," but that is not going to help when someone gets injured because this guy decided not to co-operate. If this guy keeps ignoring instructions, and the instructor does nothing about it, then personally I would mention the issue to the instructor and tell him why you think this is a problem. Then, hopefully he will prevent this from happening again in the future.

In terms of this guy correcting other students ... Simply tell him you would rather train the way your instructor says to train. He cannot argue against that response. The reality is that if this guy had mastered a superior method of training, then he would not be at your dojo paying for lessons from your instructor. Just having a black belt does not mean that everyone should respect your opinion either. If he has a better way, then he can take that up with the instructor.

Anf
Anf's picture

diadicic wrote:
I can't get a read on what this student is trying to accomplish.

Presumably he is paying for classes both in terms of cash, and in time and effort. I think he'd have to be insane to invest so much just to try to show off. I know that's a fairly bold assumption, but based on that, I'm going to hazard a guess that he does actually want to learn your style, but if he's a black belt, then we can assume that for at least about 5 years, probably several times per week, he's practiced a particular way. Now it is ingrained. It doesn't matter how open minded someone is, it is sometimes very difficult to overcome deeply ingrained habits.

diadicic wrote:
I yes I think it is a trust issue. I am normally pretty good at reading people and getting to trust them,  I don't like the fact that I don't trust him.

Perhaps avoid partnering him for a while. Trust is essential in martial arts training in my opinion. But it's not something that should be freely given just because someone wears the same uniform, and nobody should expect that. But maybe talk to him. I don't mean walk right up and tell him you don't like him. I just mean social chit chat before and after class and during the break. There's a good chance he doesn't mean to be obnoxious in any way. He might just need a bit of time to settle in.

diadicic wrote:
I don't know what I am going to do.  It might be time for me to move on, and that's ok too.

It is of course your decision to make. But perhaps you should ask yourself if you are willing to allow your feelings towards a fellow student to drive you away. Does your club and your teacher help you on your personal journey towards your personal goals? Would walking away help you achieve your goals? Would you be happy going to a different club at this stage, or even quitting completely? If you left because of this one person, are you completely happy to accept that in a few years time, when you're older and less fit, you might look back and think, 'I could have had my black belt by now'?

diadicic
diadicic's picture

I would never quit.  If I were to take a hiatus, I would just find another club or maybe go strickly train Jiu Jitsu,  plenty of hot heads there but I am used to it.  There seems to be more mutual respect because if you try something stupid, you can get hurt. I don't think I am leaving as this is my primary study.  I will find a way and used this as a learning experience.   For one thing, it will motivate me to train harder, smarter and more.

Thank you, everyone, for your perspective and advice,  it does help get my brain to think a little more before acting.

Good training to all.

Dom

Anf
Anf's picture

What if you find another club, then a few months into it, the same problem happens again?

Ian H
Ian H's picture

diadicic wrote:
What bothers me is not the fact that he interjected his opinion and tries to show other students his way. What bothers me is then to have other students say oh yes that's much better. No I'm not the teacher and it is not my school. I want to ask this student why are you here?

Another issue we had is when we were sparring doing grips trying to get each other out of a circle, We call it Tagumi. He used a little throw bringing me to the floor. I took him with me.  ;) But he knew that the drill didn't involve throwing it all. It was a mutually agreed-upon set of training criteria and he broke that agreement. And I wore it and didn't retaliate in any way.(Well maybe a little).

I am also starting to lose my patience with other students. If they feel that they like the way he trains, go there.

I'll offer what I can, offered with the best posible intentions, and hopefully you find it at least interesting and worthy of some thought.  I note your remark that "he's a nice person", so he presumably hasn't been rude or inappropriate or otherwise disprespectful.  I suppose he comes to class and wants to learn more on his martial arts journey.  He has enough experience elsewhere to look at things with a critical eye, so if he sees what to him appears to be a better way of doing something, I'm not surprised that he'd raise the issue ... perhaps hoping that someone has knowledge to offer as to why you do it "this" way rather than "that" way and why that works better, so he can learn.  Your Sensei doesn't seem to have a problem with it ... perhaps values having someone questioning with a critical mind the things that others just accept and follow.  

What's wrong with having the other students agree with him?  Are they to not think critically about what they are being taught?  If he's right about what he says, then they benefit.  If he's wrong, then I'm sure he'd be very receptive to a polite intellectual discussion on the point to get to deeper meaning.  They don't have to leave their sensei and their dojo just because they have found another martial artist who also has something useful to say to them ... they just want to incorporate what he has to say into their overall training.  

On the Tagumi ... maybe the guy made a mistake, being new to the dojo.  Maybe he got carried away and reverted to his other training.   Maybe he saw in you a highly skilled training partner who, like him, was looking for the best training experience and who was eager to take his training to "the next level"; he might have misunderstood your desires for the drill, and probably a quiet "please don't take it outside the rules" word would fix that for the future. 

Now, I'm not saying this newcomer is anywhere on the same level as Bruce Lee, but this is an interesting video nonetheless ...