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Tau
Tau's picture
Kyokushin

I'm creating this thread seeking education rather than to express any point. It occurs to me that through this forum, through seminars and through training with like-minded people that we are all very good at bring our respective Karate together through mutual concepts and goals. Under the one roof, be it conceptual such as this forum or literal as in a seminar, we see Shotokan, Wado Ryu, Shito Ryu and even Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do coming together due to shared kata. Even Goju Ryu with their different kata are welcome cousins.

But we rarely see Kyokushin practictioners and I don't think there are any on this forum. They use mostly the same Karate as the rest of us albeit with their own variations. Kyokushin seems to me like a distant cousin that we don't really like to mention.

Am I wrong? If I'm right, why is this? Why isn't there more integration?

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Tau

I'm not a Kyokushin practitioner but my Sensei was, our dojo left Kyokushin structure in 1989 due to restrictions in cooperating with other groups. Back then Kyokushin had this mentality of the best karate, better then others. I'm a member of Kyokushin forums, most of the people who I met are focused on sport and kumite. Kata is just for passing grades, and used as a basic form of technical training. I generalise here I'm sure there is many who is exploring bunkai.

There is few people on this forum who have been in Kyokushin and moved on to other systems like Enshin, Ashihara, Kudo, Shin ai do I see across the Kyokushin family that they are getting more open and stopped to fight among themselves. 

Kind regards

Les

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Tau wrote:
But we rarely see Kyokushin practitioners and I don't think there are any on this forum. They use mostly the same Karate as the rest of us albeit with their own variations. Kyokushin seems to me like a distant cousin that we don't really like to mention.

Am I wrong? If I'm right, why is this? Why isn't there more integration?

I don’t think that’s the case. We do have Kyokushin practitioners here, and there are certainly plenty of them at the seminars, etc. It is a less widely practiced style when comparted to the likes of Shotokan, Shito-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, etc. So it’s understandable that the specifics of their style is talked less about. I think the only reason for that is simply because there is less of them overall.  The same could be said of Matsubayashi-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Isshin-ryu, Chito-ryu, etc. We have practitioners of all of those systems as members, but they are in a minority because they are in a minority. Nothing more than that.

So it’s most certainly not that they are “distant cousins that we don't really like to mention”, it’s just the inevitable consequence of karate’s demographics.

All the best,

Iain

dhogsette
dhogsette's picture

Interestingly, I'm of the Matsubayashi minority, and I recently met a student at the college where I teach who is training for nidan in kyokushin. Part of his test is to explain practical bunkai for one kata of his choice. He is familiar with Iain's work and approach, and we have had some great discussions about practical bunkai. This weekend I'll be sharing examples of throws and takedowns from basic kata with the campus martial arts groups. This is purely anecdotal, but it speaks to Iain's point. Lots of folks in these smaller groups do great bunkai work, but you don't hear too much because we are already a small group. ;-)

Best,

David

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

dhogsette wrote:
Lots of folks in these smaller groups do great bunkai work, but you don't hear too much because we are already a small group. ;-)

I think that the main reason. I also wonder if the fact that karate is generally becoming less style focused is also playing a part? In the past, styles were a bigger issue with people reluctant to train with karateka of other styles. Now that the benefit of doing so is more self-evident; as is the fact that karate’s common principles unite us. So if people are no longer tying their identity as martial artists to the karate style, then you would not know what style they were … especially in online conversations.

Either way, it’s all positive stuff :-)

All the best,

Iain

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

dhogsette

Great to hear, positive direction :) 

Kind regards

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Admittedly, I have generally found Kyokushin practitioners to be the karateka least interested in kata or its application, and they tend to get stuck on techniques for knockdown competition, essentially considering anything else to be useless to them. Obviously, I know that this is not the case for all the Kyokushin practitioners out there, and I have certainly met and trained with Kyoukshin stylists who are all about practical kata application. That's just a general observation of the wider online karate community. There are actually quite a lot of Kyokushin practitioners out there, but they have a specific approach to training, and seek to cultivate a specific mentality, that separates them from most other karate styles, and they seem rather proud of that. There are pockets of Kyokushin karateka who delve into the old-style karate--I'm friends with several--but I think a lot of them LIKE not doing that, because they think the old stuff isn't as good as what they are doing. I think Les's observations from "the inside" (kind of) essentially support that.

All that said, I don't want to seem like a downer, or like I'm hating on Kyokushin practitioners! I just hope that, with more of us making practical old-style methods public, we can bring more karateka of all styles into the light, so to speak *coughKarateIlluminaticough*

Alex Morris
Alex Morris's picture

I spent about three years training between two kyokushin dojo and would have to say that their focus was on sport type kumite rather than kata bunkai. I'm not saying that all kyokushin clubs are the same and my experience with kyokushin is only limited (three years isn't a long time after all) but during the lessons a lot of time was spent on sparring full contact, especially when it was getting near to their knockdown tournament.

Leszek.B wrote:
Back then Kyokushin had this mentality of the best karate, better then others.

I found this to be the case and one of the sensei once said to me Kyokushin will improve your Wado Ryu but your Wado Ryu will not improve your Kyokushin, personally I do not agree with this.

They did spend some time on kata and when they did they always demanded that it was crisp and strong, they were always testing postures and stances and if you wasn't right you ended up on the floor after they kicked your legs. The sensei at the main dojo I attended liked to go through Sanchin and did all the testing with it but during the entire time I trained there we never did any bunkai.

They also liked to go through basics and did a lot of circuit training as well. Pushup, sit ups, squats, skipping, bag work, etc was often done in lessons and exchanging punches and kicks to the body and legs was done almost every lesson. This training was all in preparation for their own tournaments but when I was part of it I thought it was what real karate training was all about.

I really enjoyed the training I did at these dojo and I think it really helped me to develop my basics. From my experience kyokushin is certainly a very demanding style of karate and all their training seems to be geared towards conditioning the body and strengthening the mind with a never-say-die mentality. I was often relieved to finish training because it was the toughest I had ever done, but I feel I have gained more from training more practically in other clubs, this and the fact that I'm not interested in competition anymore is the reason I finished training in kyokushin.

All the best

Alex

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

I used to practice Kyokushin Kai.  I returned to my roots of Shito-Ryu as I found it to be more complete.  I think Kyokushin Kai yields itself to younger people that merely want to do a contact sport, much like boxing, just fighting.

As for Kata, it depends on the Kyokushin Kai instructor, some are really good at kata, others don't pursue it.

I also think there is a much higher drop out rate.  Many people say they wan't to do a fighting art, in Kyokushin I would see people quit after their first Kumite, as there was full contact and knock down options only.  

Dillon
Dillon's picture

There's at least one kyokushin karateka floating around these parts ;)

Marcus_1
Marcus_1's picture

This baffles me, there are plenty of Kyokushin dojo's here in Kent. In fact; I would say that it is the widest studied form of Karate in this part of the UK taking over from Shotokan in recent years. On the other hand, finding a Gojo Ryu or Wado Ryu dojo is like (pardon the language) rocking horse s*!t.

Ian H
Ian H's picture

Opening remark ... I am not a practitioner, but I have had dealings with a good number of Kyokushin practitioners over the years, and I've always had good experiences.  My comments below are to be taken as elaborations on the subject, in light of my good opinion of that style

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Kyokushin ... It is a less widely practiced style when comparted to the likes of Shotokan, Shito-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, etc. So it’s understandable that the specifics of their style is talked less about. I think the only reason for that is simply because there is less of them overall.  The same could be said of Matsubayashi-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Isshin-ryu, Chito-ryu, etc. We have practitioners of all of those systems as members, but they are in a minority because they are in a minority. Nothing more than that.

So it’s most certainly not that they are “distant cousins that we don't really like to mention”, it’s just the inevitable consequence of karate’s demographics.

Chito-ryu practitioner here.  I'd say that from what I've seen from the perspective within my style, Kyokushin is still seen as a "distant cousin" ... but I'd take away "that we don't really like to mention".  A lot of this has to do with almost all of the different Karate styles in our area both being members of the mainstream provincial and national karate organisations, and competing at "WKF-style" karate tournaments ... but Kyokushin tends to NOT join those organisations or compete in those style of tournaments, but keep to themselves and do their own thing.  I can understand why they wouldn't be too keen on a WKF tournament, when the rules of contact &c are so different from their own style's.  

This is different from Chito-ryu and many of the other "minor" styles mentioned, as these tend to blend more seamlessly with the mainstream styles in terms of WKF-tournament suitablility and organisational co-operation.   Being in one of the smaller styles, I don't see us being treated as a "distant cousin" the way Kyokushin is.  

Also, there is the general sense that Kyokushin is "the most 'OSU!!!!' of all the styles", if you get my meaning.   From the outside looking in, where other styles of karate would all see value in both "hard" and "soft" and balancing/shifting between them, Kyokushin is all about "hard ... harder ... no, even harder!!".  Not that that's "right" or "wrong" ... just a noticeably different from pretty much everyone else.  

This is pretty much all opinion based on being on the outside looking in, and from a distance.  Some of it may be spot-on, some may be exaggerated, and some may be just plain wrong.  Like I said, I have a good opinion of the style ... it's just a lot different from the rest, from what I can see.