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Marc
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Iain Abernethy wrote:

Well there’s proof that no one reads my posts :)

I refer to the “meeting of the masters” – quoting the exact same section – in my first post in this thread.

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/comment/9527#comment-9527

Sorry, did read your post, of course. Just overlooked that you linked to the source.

 

Iain Abernethy
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Marc wrote:
Sorry, did read your post, of course. Just overlooked that you linked to the source.

No problem Marc :-) It was a tounge in cheek remark.

All the best,

Iain

OnlySeisan
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Crap.

I apologize Mr. Abernethy.

Iain Abernethy
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OnlySeisan wrote:
I apologize Mr. Abernethy.

No apology needed :-) It was a tongue in cheek remark on my part … and the alternate translation added something to the thread so I really appreciate you doing that.

Uqksu
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To return to the first question in this thread. Zen does not neccesitate religion in the way I think the question is being stated. Musashi was a warrior and such zen concepts as mushin were clearly part of strategy, secondly zen is character development and I believe (and it would seem most karate masters) it is the primary goal of karate, hence Do is still attached.

Iain Abernethy
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Uqksu wrote:
To return to the first question in this thread. Zen does not neccesitate religion in the way I think the question is being stated. Musashi was a warrior and such zen concepts as mushin were clearly part of strategy, secondly zen is character development and I believe (and it would seem most karate masters) it is the primary goal of karate, hence Do is still attached.

I’m sure if Musashi was around today we would diagnosis him as a psychopath. A brilliant tactician and an undeniably skilled fighter; but let’s not forget he was beating people to death in his early teens and killed many throughout his life. There is nothing in ‘The Book of the Five Rings’ that is truly “zen” and it’s essentially a book about how to kill most effectively.

Zen may have concepts around “mindfulness” and being “of the moment” but that is a very much based on a philosophical view of the universe and man’s role in it. Musashi and others may also have understood the need for comparable things combatively, but the aim was the death of enemies. They are radically different in intent and hence it’s not right, in my view, to apply the “zen” label to it. Musashi was not seeking enlightenment in the “zen” sense; he was seeking victory in bloody conflict.

When it comes to Musashi’s philosophy, we have the “Dokkōdō” (The Path of Aloneness) which he wrote shortly before his death. There are some parts of it which have commonality with Zen ideals – i.e. ideas of non-attachment – but there are parts of it that do not. Indeed, as my friend Jamie Clubb recently pointed out to me, it has a lot more in common with the Nietzschean idea of the “Übermensch” than with Zen i.e. “Do not regret what you have done”, “Do not act following customary beliefs”, etc.

I therefore strongly feel we should avoid the “zen” label for comparable martial concepts – because there is much that is not comparable – and keep in mind that the Zen link to martial arts has now been soundly debunked historically. We had a good thread on that recently too:

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/zen-and-martial-arts-why-it-bs

Uqksu wrote:
secondly zen is character development and I believe (and it would seem most karate masters) it is the primary goal of karate, hence Do is still attached.

I’m no expert but I would say that the aim of Zen is enlightenment; not development of character. Again there may be common ground, but all religions seek to better the character of their adherents. Christianity, for example, ultimately seeks to ensure the salvation of its adherents. Improving character may be part of it, but it’s not the ultimate goal. The shared goal of character development does not imply complete commonality. Zen is not Christianity. Karate is not zen. The boy scouts of America have “Character Development” listed as one of their 10 goals, but scouting is not martial arts.

There is therefore no link to Zen on the basis of character development. Indeed, Itosu was unequivocal that there was no link:

“Karate did not develop from Buddhism or Confucianism” – Anko Itosu, 1908.

All the best,

Iain

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