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Tau
Tau's picture
Training for Reality

Off the back of my recent video and the resultant comments, I'd like to ask how we train for the reality of violence in our respective dojo. I'm not referencing technique per se but how to include the chaos of actual combat, the physchology, the effects of adrenaline, the sudden-ness, the intent.

I've done Iain's KBS many times and love it. Hard work, great fun, productive. Yet I never feel any degree of threat due to (necessary) safety measures and that we're all friends in the room.

I want to do one of Mr Titchen's days but so far work and other seminars have prevented me.

Gary Smith is doing good stuff in the same vein that I do, but still the above elements are missing.

What's the solution? Is there one?

Mark B
Mark B's picture

It's certainly difficult. One of my main problems is that when I teach, and practice this type of stuff when I do create an opening, because I practice around the template of Kata we find you can't apply your response properly because even under pressure kata is not random. Properly applied I inevitably open up striking targets which are quite simply too dangerous to strike. OK - so we've figured out what you can't do, so how to address the issues you've mentioned . KBS - that to me is play, partly because of the reasons above. John Titchen stuff - good stuff, but too much body armour, in my opinion. If we ignore pre emptive strikes for this debate, and work on the principle that the aggressor has stolen the initiative then the first thing I teach is an effective cover against a) a right punch b) right/left punches c) a barrage of random strikes. The cover I teach is a shortened elbow cover, almost a Mawashi Empi, but very fluid. Attacker wears boxing gloves. This is important, as my response will look to destroy their hands. Build the process. If you feel happier wear head guards. In my dojo, for this exercise only the bad guy wears head guard. I, as the good guy must "feel" that there is a genuine threat of impact on my face. The opponent wears head protection just in case I respond a bit heavier than intended. So, we have practiced a simple, useable flinch counter offensive option, now we build the drill. 1) receive and destroy a right cross. Then add on an immediate strike response - Shotai Uchi in my dojo 2) receive and destroy right/left combo 3)receive and destroy a barrage of strikes 4)add Ashi and Tai Sabaki to the drill 5)add an appropriate response with the Sabaki. Now we have a useable initial defence system we now add the elements that give it a hint of realism. Attitude, language, spite, aggression - this is the part most dojo struggle with. When I put on those gloves to play the role of bad guy then just for that moment I hate my partner, my body language, foul language, posture, aggression, everything. My intention is to make significant contact with their face, but most importantly for the drill, they KNOW this. We need to be able to transmit genuine malice, difficult if you've not been there, but not impossible. We then return to the list of drills, adding a more ballistic beginning, more aggressive pre strike etc, plus the attacker decides how and when they attack. These are some of the stuff we practice. Sometimes you can do a blast drill before starting, so the heart rate is up a bit. After all that though the most important thing is that the good guy must absolutely know that if possible you will hit him, hard. I hope you find some of these ideas of use Regards Mark

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark B wrote:
KBS - that to me is play

Tau wrote:
I've done Iain's KBS many times and love it. Hard work, great fun, productive. Yet I never feel any degree of threat …

It starts as play – and that’s often as far as it goes at the seminars, which may account for yours and Peter’s experience of it – but includes absolutely everything you mentioned, and more. My regular students will not recognise your descriptions of it. Sure they find it “fun” because they have built up to it and the “fun” feeling tends to come afterward. Everyone enjoys an adrenaline rush right? ;-) It’s also safe, because their skill levels and experience of it keep it safe. It could be a blood bath if I did what I do in the classes at seminars.

Peter has done some at residentials. Have you ever done any KBS with me Mark?

These podcasts may help expain the wider picture:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-principles

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-structure

I like play and games to build confidence and develop skills in the early stages, so that pressure can be increased gradually and without overwhelming the student before they are ready.

However, it does not remain that way forever. To mistake it for meaningless play is to grossly misunderstand it.

These articles may also help with the original question:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-1-iain-abernethy

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-2-iain-abernethy

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-3-iain-abernethy

The first article includes the need to begin and preceded with aggression. Inducing physical fatigue is covered in the final one and that’s a very good way to introduce distress too.

All the best,

Iain

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi Iain Have I done any KBS with you? No, not really. Many moons ago at a seminar, but as you say, that was very steady. Anyhow, you say my description is similar to what you do, so that's all good. My approach is simply built around the bad situations I've experienced, and I'm happy to say it has served a few of my students well when they have found themselves in situations they were unable to avoid, which is why I thought Peter might find it of interest. My post was in response to the questions asked by Peter , and my reference to your KBS was in response to it having been mentioned Maybe I'm in a favourable position compared to some of having some life experiences on which I can base my approach, which means I can pretty much make my own way in that regard, either way I feel like I'm doing OK All the best Mark

Tau
Tau's picture

Just as we're talking about specific context. Marc, what are your experiences? What do you do?

The self protection that I teach is situations in which you would seek to avoid and escape rather than, say, door work or security.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark B wrote:
Have I done any KBS with you? No, not really. Many moons ago at a seminar, but as you say, that was very steady ... Maybe I'm in a favourable position compared to some of having some life experiences on which I can base my approach, which means I can pretty much make my own way in that regard, either way I feel like I'm doing OK

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't suggesting that you needed to do it with me, but simply asking if you had in light of your comment. I could not recall you doing any, so wondered what the view was based on. I've seen what you do at a past grading and on your videos and I'd agree you're doing just fine :-) I was not suggesting otherwise. It was just that your KBS comment confused me, especially when much of what you went on to decribe would be similar in nature; particauly in regard to the way that drills are built up and other elements added in as competence increases.

All the best,

Iain

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi Iain. I obviously spoke out of ignorance regarding your KBS, apologies. Thanks for your kind words regarding the grading from a while back, I've certainly evolved a great deal since then, and thanks for your reference to my videos. Funnily enough I'll be doing a seminar on Passai in the Spring of next year, which will be focused on using elements of my Uke Waza process I described for Peter, and how Passai works nicely for real last resort self defence. Peter was right to ask the question, these elements are sadly lacking in many dojo, and for karate to be truly relevant these issues must be addressed. All the best Mark

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi all, I've only just noticed that Tau asked a question of Marc. It follows my post, I'm not sure it's me he's asking, if it's not apologies and ignore this post :-) Definitely avoidance, de-escalation, space management, escape - before we talk about pre emption. When I refer to my experiences I'm not talking about any type of door or security work, it's all me "out there", usually alone, so no hope of rescue or support I think it's worth saying I'm not proud of any of it, embarrassed more like, but at least I can try and find something positive out of it. When I think about linking my experiences to training it's dealing with the push & shove, grabs, receiving headbutts at close quarters, attacks by drunks in public places (the local bus station springs to mind), multiple opponents - receiving some pretty lousy injuries, but continuing the struggle, dealing with aggressive behaviour and posturing. Most of this was a few years back now. I'd like to think I'd handle things much differently today. Some of my students have had to use the physical side of our training, with great success I'm happy to say. Regards Mark

Tau
Tau's picture

Mark B wrote:

Hi all, I've only just noticed that Tau asked a question of Marc.

Yes, it was you I was asking. Sorry for mis-spelling. The joys of iPhones and autocorrect. And thanks for the response. We are looking at the same context so that it useful.