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Kyoshi
Kyoshi's picture
Rohai

I am working on Rohai at the moment and i want to hear others oppinions aswell in regards to some of the moves in the Kata.

If anyone also has bits and pieces of information regarding this Kata, i would love to hear. What i have thought about is the resemblence of the elder Chinto kata - some of the stepping and stances are similiar. Also i find it to be "Naihanchi like" because of the simplicity, few variations in the moves and a simple embuzen. Some says it was "invented" by Kosaku Matsumora?

The moves that i would love some extra input are:

- the 1 legged crance stance with 1 hand held high and 1 hand held low. (similair to Chinto/Gankaku)

- the double punch from the hip. ( similiar to Bassai Passai )

- the crecant 1 legged turning kick. ( we have this in Bassai/passai also) 

These are workable as throws, but i would love to hear what bunkai you have for these moves?

Looking forward to answars.

Best wishes

Nikolaj - Denmark

BRyder
BRyder's picture

Do you have a video of the version you are doing?

Zach_MB
Zach_MB's picture

Could we see a video of your version? The way you describe the kata makes it seems like the Korean Kata "No Pae", which is often given the name Rohai for reasons that I have yet to find. The shotokhan version of Rohai was written by Funikoshi and Itosou. Itosou wrote three Rhohai kata for Funikoshi, Funikoshi did not like the first two, threw them out, and then rewrote the third one and called it Rohai.

Kyoshi
Kyoshi's picture

This is similiar - a little different but the closest too

Zach_MB
Zach_MB's picture

For the one legged stance I feel that this is a grappling range defensive movement. The low hand controlling an arm, the high hand controlling the neck/head/shoulder, and the elevated leg avoiding a kick or sweep the the front leg.  As I type this it strikes me that the elevated leg could very well be a knee in its own regard (The hands keeping their control points and aiding to the power of the knee strike).

Every kata has it's variations across style, student, and teacher. However, Rohai seems to be one of the most muddled of them all. At this point it seems like trying to uncover the intent of the original kata may be a lost cause, to the point where we're trying to put bunkai on a kata that has been adapted for the personal visions of hundreds of different karateka. Now I'm not saying that it is, or more appropriately they are, bad katas. I love the version of the kata that I know. I think it's just an interesting case study to consider the joyride that this kata has taken over the years and that this should be considered when we're looking at it's bunkai.

BRyder
BRyder's picture

It is a nice kata. As youre in Denmark whay don't you just go see Jim in Copenhagen? - his application practces are awesome.

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Nikolaj,

take a look here: 

Maybe thats of interest for you.

@ Zach

Zach_MB wrote:
The shotokhan version of Rohai was written by Funikoshi and Itosou. Itosou wrote three Rhohai kata for Funikoshi, Funikoshi did not like the first two, threw them out, and then rewrote the third one and called it Rohai.

Were did you get this information? As far as I know Itosu was the successor of Gusukuma of Tomari and that is where he probably learned the Tomari kata Rohai. He formulated Rohai Shodan, Nidan and Sandan that is right, but for Funakoshi? Funakoshi gave the Shotokan Rohai the name Meikyo. The Meikyo not only has movements from Rohai Sandan, but also from Rohai Nidan, so maybe he rewrote Rohai Nidan wink. I would be interested in your source of information.

Regards Holger

Oerjan Nilsen
Oerjan Nilsen's picture

Zach_MB wrote:

Could we see a video of your version? The way you describe the kata makes it seems like the Korean Kata "No Pae", which is often given the name Rohai for reasons that I have yet to find. The shotokhan version of Rohai was written by Funikoshi and Itosou. Itosou wrote three Rhohai kata for Funikoshi, Funikoshi did not like the first two, threw them out, and then rewrote the third one and called it Rohai.

No Pae is almost identical to what is called Matsumura No Rohai in Shito Ryu. At least the ones I have been shown. That is why it is often also called Rohai. Kosaku Matsumura is often credited with the creation of the original Rohai Kata. Anko Itosu used that Rohai as a base to make his version wich he split into three parts Rohai Shodan, Nidan etc. In some styles they practise the "original" (dangerous word to use when it comes to Kata) while in others they use Itosu`s three Kata (or two or one) and calls it Rohai. Funakoshi used Itosu`s Rohai to make his own version wich he called Meikyo. The Chang Moo Kwan and the Moo Duk Kwan both used the "original" Rohai in their teachings and some did call it No Pae Hyung. I was very suprised when I found out that several "Korean" versions vere the same as the "original" Kata.

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi,

there is no such kata as Matsumura no Rohai. The Shito Matsumura Rohai is Matsumora Rohai. The mans name is Kosaku Matsumora and is very often mistaken for Matsumura Sokon when only the family name is used, even in old japanese sources. There is also no Matsumura no Chinto.  That just by the way.

Regards Holger

stephen
stephen's picture

In Wado we have Rohai (shodan) as one of the '15' kata (not the "official" 9 kata). I like the aesthetics of Rohai, but I think something's missing. It feels like only a bit of a kata (hence nidan and sandan!) Is anyone doing a "unified" Itosu Rohai, if there is such a thing?

Rohai is only a short kata, and sometimes I do it with kids for a bit of fun. Kids seems to be attracted to the "animal" forms. Rohai and Tensho... always goes down well with the children!

Kyoshi
Kyoshi's picture

@Bryder - Yes i know Jim Sindt personally. He is busy at the moment - but when i get a chance to see him again i will definately ask. Don't know if Patrick Mccarhy has a Rohai in Koryu Uchinadi?

@Zach_mb - yes i have also thought either that lifting the leg to protect from a foot sweep, replacing the leg (from outside to inside(crane dance)) or using it for a knee attack or as a kick to the groin from someone behind.

@ Ky0han - great video - appreciate the input! Keep it coming!

Okay i appreciate the imput - what about bunkai applications?

- for the 1 legged stance

- double punch

- crescant side kick

I've watched Iains DVD on Bassai in regards to the double punch - its a good approuch i believe.

BRyder
BRyder's picture

Hi Nikolaj,

No we dont practice Rohai specifically in Koryu Uchinadi, but the templates are all quite familiar. Just looking at the video I can work out 80% of them so with a lot more experience I'm sure Jim would be a good source.

The one legged stance - crane on a rock - is for defence against and under the arm bear hug (the lifted leg is used as a grapevine) or a single lapel/choke.

With th double punch, try not to think of it as a punch or s an outward technique, but rather the hands pulling back to the body having grabbed someone and see what you can find.

There is a thread on crescent kicks running at the moment with a few idea on...

Zach_MB
Zach_MB's picture

Zach_MB wrote:

Were did you get this information? As far as I know Itosu was the successor of Gusukuma of Tomari and that is where he probably learned the Tomari kata Rohai. He formulated Rohai Shodan, Nidan and Sandan that is right, but for Funakoshi? Funakoshi gave the Shotokan Rohai the name Meikyo. The Meikyo not only has movements from Rohai Sandan, but also from Rohai Nidan, so maybe he rewrote Rohai Nidan wink. I would be interested in your source of information.

Regards Holger

Shotokhan's Secret by Bruce Clayton. My copy is loaned out at the moment, so I can't give you the page number. It's a great read though.

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Zach,

okay. I have the first edition (not the expanded one). So I am taking a look when I am back home from work.

As a side note. I would not take that book as a valid source. It is a very interesting read though and I enjoyed it reading, but it is nothing more than his theory. And some of his allegedly historical "facts" are not based on evidence.

It is a few years back when a last read it. So I think I have to read it again to come up with some examples.

Regards Holger