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Jason Lester
Jason Lester's picture
Pinan / Heian Yondan Bunkai (opening combat tactics)

Hi all,

this video shows my take on the opening movements of Pinan / Heian Yondan, this was filmed at our E.K.A. instructors course held in May 2013.

I hope you enjoy watching and it may be of interest.

Kind regards,

Jason

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

I did enjoy and found this one interesting Jason!

Of course I do have some quick questions-

1. The security of hitting with the back of the hand in that manner, im not convinced it's a method I would employ. Especially from Neko Ashi Dachi. 2. You are pretty much front on, what happened to the embusen of the kata which clearly shows a 90 degree off the straight.

One of the functions of the 'dead hand' as I understand it is that of Hikite, or indeed of supporting the front hand by the alignment of the hips and shoulders which coupled with hip tuck enables delivery of force from the ground, and indeed the connection of the upper and lower body.

It's the 'other' power method in karate as opposed to hips moving side to side , ala Shukokai double hip (and indeed some modern Shorin Ryu now on Okinawa).

Anyhow thanks for posting.

Jason Lester
Jason Lester's picture

Hi Jim, thanks for the reply.

the use of the back-hand is just another idea / approach for the opening movements, its important to remember that open handed strikes / blocks may indeed be a lot quicker than those of a clenched fist as the body is more relaxed. i personally find the use of the back-hand strike very effective and powerfull, of course this would not suit everybody.

Being front on shows how one does not have to stick directly to the angles in the kata, as we all know getting to the left and right side of our opponent is easier said than done. as mentioned in the video kata has to be correct, however the realistic bunkai is a different matter. sadly i ran out of time for my slot so could show the use of the Neko-Ashi-Dachi, however no doubt i will film and post a video of this in the near future.

Again there are many applications to this opening in the kata, its important to drill and explore as may avenues of attack and defense as possible. we have bunkai drills for this opening from attackes from the sides and behind etc but this was just from a frontal confrontation.

please you enjoyed watching and it was of interest.

Kind regards,

Jason

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Shoshinkanuk,

shoshinkanuk wrote:
2. You are pretty much front on, what happened to the embusen of the kata which clearly shows a 90 degree off the straight.

I think I’d be wary of getting too slavishly getting caught up by the kata’s example. The movement is at 90 degrees so, according to Mabuni, that does indeed mean we should be at 90 degrees to the enemy. This is how I do that in the clip below.

However, that does not mean that’s the only way to do it. I could strike the neck straight on too (similarly to how Jason shows it) and that is how I do it on the basic drill shown on my DVD “The Pinan / Heian System: The complete fighting system – Volume 2”. Those drills are the same ones I teach first in my own dojo; so I to deliberately “ignore” the embusen in that instance. It still works, is a legitimate variation, and, in our case, it helps the drill fit in with the wider training ethos for that stage of the student’s development i.e. shows that variations from the kata are permissible / desirable in the circumstances, and better support the “attack minded” attitude that I wish to instil in the early days; as opposed to the more “defensive offline shift” that the embusen would suggest was the original intention.

The point is that the kata is, in my mind, meant to provide an illustration of principle as opposed to an exact technique that must always be rigidly adhered to. So I see nothing wrong with choosing not to include the embusen; providing it is a wilful omission as opposed to an unintentional oversight.

Could I ask what your style teaches for this particular motion, or what your own personal thoughts are, so readers can further compare and contrast?

All the best,

Iain

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

I do not disagree that what is shown, i.e not true to the kata embusen isn't effective- as it is.

My stance on Bunkai is a direct analysis of the kata which fully incorporates the embusen, then we work into Oyo (Application with variations etc.). Which is what I would class what Jason shows in this example etc.

We do not work this kata, or indeed this movement in our Ryu, so difficult to give an answer of merrit from that perspective. We do not even have a Neko Ashi or Kokutsu Dachi formal stance in our kata.

However, I will of course try to find some time to think about this and perhaps get a vid together of my idea on it. I did alot of Pinan Yondan about 25 years ago!

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

shoshinkanuk wrote:
We do not work this kata, or indeed this movement in our Ryu, so difficult to give an answer of merit from that perspective. We do not even have a Neko Ashi or Kokutsu Dachi formal stance in our kata.

I was unaware of that, so apologies for asking for your style’s take on things. I accept it’s an impossible question to answer. I’m always curious to see what all the different branches of karate are doing :-)

shoshinkanuk wrote:
However, I will of course try to find some time to think about this and perhaps get a vid together of my idea on it. I did alot of Pinan Yondan about 25 years ago!

That would be great and I’m sure it would be a great addition to the collective knowledgebase. Thanks!

All the best,

Iain

JWT
JWT's picture

Hi Jason, thanks for sharing.

It's always interesting to see the different things that different people do with the Kata.  We aren't all going to be the same because we are working from different training paradigms and often we may see something we like, but won't teach because it doesn't fit holistically with the other approaches we drill.

I can look at your approach and see an idea, at Iain's above and see another, or at mine below and see a third.

I've actually just shot a five minute video on the Pinan Shodan movement which also stresses the sideways movement I've done above, but with the arm movement at the top taking centre stage.

I have to admit that what fascinates me is just how much can be done with simple movements when you apply them from different angles and in different contexts.  I'm not fixated on embusen personally - it shows one way of doing things, not the only way or necessarily the best way.

Thanks again

john

Jason Lester
Jason Lester's picture

Hi John, thankyou for your post and video.

its great and important that everyone naturally have their own take and ideas regarding bunkai, and of course there is no right or wrong.

as you pointed out about how much can be done with a single movement, by this we really start to see and understand why the masters of old only knew 2 to 3 kata at the most and took about 3 to 5 years to study to really understand the kats in depth. although classed as basic kata and already pointed out, the Pinan / Heian kata are worthy of much study and one could easily spend 3 to five years of study on just one of the 5 Pinan / Heian kata.

i am a firm believer that the first few tactics of the kata should end the fight there and then, however, if this is not the case the rest of the kata is what i call back up tactics, and the kata teaches one to keep going untill your opponent is destroyed. this is of course my own view and the way i approach kata.

Kind regards,

Jason

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

shoshinkanuk wrote:

We do not work this kata, or indeed this movement in our Ryu, so difficult to give an answer of merrit from that perspective. We do not even have a Neko Ashi or Kokutsu Dachi formal stance in our kata.

A style of Shorin Ryu that doesnt do Pinan Yondan?  Seen a lot of Shorin Ryu, and I find that very difficult to believe.

Plus Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura...  Seminar with Fuse Kise when I was young, he taught Pinan Yondan, as well as the other 4.

Just sayin.

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

Hi Dale,

The public Seito Matsumura system does teach Pinan 1-5, Kise Sensei put together Pinan 3,4 and 5 with the permission of Hohan Soken Sensei for the system.

I practice a family style of Seito Matsumura from Kosei Nishihira Sensei that does not practice Pinan 3,4 and 5- just 1 and 2.

There is some interesting 'history' to all of this that has been discussed on the forum regarding Channan and it's possible relasionship to Pinan 1 and 2, but not with 3,4 and 5 which I believe were creations of Itosu Sensei for the modern karate method etc.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

shoshinkanuk wrote:
There is some interesting 'history' to all of this that has been discussed on the forum regarding Channan and it's possible relationship to Pinan 1 and 2, but not with 3,4 and 5 which I believe were creations of Itosu Sensei for the modern karate method etc

I’ve heard this a few times, but as yet no one as provided a solid source. All the information I have would suggest Itosu was the creator of all five Pinan kata i.e. Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu etc – who were all students of Itosu – saying he was the creator of the entire Pinan series in their writings (they did not say not he created just part of it).

There is discussion of a form called “Channan” being a partial inspiration or predecessor of the Pinan series i.e. the interview that was done with Motobu where he remarked that when he saw Itosu’s younger students perform the Pinan kata that they reminded him of the Channan kata he had learnt at an earlier date.

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=127

Channan: The Lost Kata of Itosu? By Joe Swift wrote:

References to Channan can be found as far back as 1934. In the karate research journal entitled Karate no Kenkyu, published by Nakasone Genwa, Motobu Choki is quoted referring to the Channan and the Pinan kata:

"(Sic.) I was interested in the martial arts since I was a child, and studied under many teachers. I studied with Itosu Sensei for 7-8 years. At first, he lived in Urasoe, then moved to Nakashima Oshima in Naha, then on to Shikina, and finally to the villa of Baron Ie. He spent his final years living near the middle school.

I visited him one day at his home near the school, where we sat talking about the martial arts and current affairs. While I was there, 2-3 students also dropped by and sat talking with us. Itosu Sensei turned to the students and said 'show us a kata.' The kata that they performed was very similar to the Channan kata that I knew, but there were some differences also. Upon asking the student what the kata was, he replied 'It is Pinan no Kata.' The students left shortly after that, upon which I turned to Itosu Sensei and said 'I learned a kata called Channan, but the kata that those students just performed now was different. What is going on?' Itosu Sensei replied 'Yes, the kata is slightly different, but the kata that you just saw is the kata that I have decided upon. The students all told me that the name Pinan is better, so I went along with the opinions of the young people.' These kata, which were developed by Itosu Sensei, underwent change even during his own lifetime." (Murakami, 1991; 120)

Reading this, I think Motobu is talking about the evolution of the kata from “Channan” to “Pinan”, and Itosu is explaining his reasoning for the changes he has made. I don’t think this points to a lost kata, but a single creation of Itosu evolving over time.

I feel the other references to Channan also seem to support this idea. Mabuni & Nakasone writing in “Kobo Kenpo Karate-do Nyumon” said that the Pinan kata were originally called “Channan” (i.e. not a lost kata, but a former name). Hiroshi Kinjo – a renowned historian and student of three of Itosu’s students – also states “Channan” is an older version of the Pinan series i.e. the modernised version goes under the name “Pinan” whereas the name for their predecessor was called “Channan”.

Based on the above, my pet theory is that Channan was also a creation of Itosu; which he later remodelled into the Pinans. No certainty here, but I think the fact that Channan is only ever mentioned in reference to Itosu, the above information, and the fact there is no surviving version of the form – whereas there is with the other kata which have obviously influenced the Pinan series i.e. Kushanku, Passai, Chinto – suggests to me that Channan is not “lost”, but was “the proto-Pinan” which was eventually superseded by the kata we have today. “Channan” is therefore still with us in a modernised form.

However, this link yourself and others have mentioned to Pinan 1 & 2 would suggest something hugely significant: Itosu was not the creator of all the series (as his students said he was) and there is a definitive Channan link with some of the Pinan, but not with others. This would suggest there is a “lost kata” and we know something about the nature of Channan kata (i.e. what techniques it was composed of)? What is the accepted source for this? I’d be most grateful if you could let us know as it would seem to be extremely important?

Thanks in advance.

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

I raised this last year or the year before because I'd read somewhere (probably a rumour propogated by Elvis Presley's illigimate 3rd cousin Ninja) that there was a Channan 3 that became Pinan 6 & 7. I'd love for this to be true. That thread should be on this forum somewhere (or the old forum)

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

Sorry Iain got to be brief,

To be clear I do not think Pinan 1 and 2 are Channan, or ever were. But I do beleive that there was a simple long fist form called Channan that was the inspiration/very close to Pinan 1 and 2 (That Itosu created in the form we know today).

I also believe that Itosu took elements of other classical kata and formed Pinan 3,4 and 5.

But it's only what I think, and my interpretation of various writings and oral history passed onto me by several Senpai.

For me I see a fundamental difference in Pinan 3,4 and 5 when compared to Pinan 1 and 2 in terms of complexity and embusen etc, this supports my view.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

shoshinkanuk wrote:
Sorry Iain got to be brief,

Thank you for the timely reply.

shoshinkanuk wrote:
To be clear I do not think Pinan 1 and 2 are Channan, or ever were. But I do beleive that there was a simple long fist form called Channan that was the inspiration/very close to Pinan 1 and 2 (That Itosu created in the form we know today).

Thanks for the clarification and apologies if I picked you up wrong.

shoshinkanuk wrote:
I also believe that Itosu took elements of other classical kata and formed Pinan 3,4 and 5.

But it's only what I think, and my interpretation of various writings and oral history passed onto me by several Senpai.

As I said in my last post, this is really interesting hypothesis and I’m sure we’d all be grateful if you could expand on why you hold that view when you have more time? References to the writings and oral history (if appropriate) would also be appreciated.

Specifically, what makes you think that 1 & 2 are Channan based; whereas 3,4 & 5 draw inspiration from other kata? Things that jump to mind is that the turn to the rear followed by the three shutos and nukite found in Pinan Shodan would seem to from Kushanku. What makes you dismiss that connection in favour of a suggested connection with Channan?

Also, while it’s true that some motions (i.e. the opening moves of Pinan Shodan) are not found in Kushanku, Passai, Chinto, etc, the same can be said of motions in 3,4 & 5 (i.e. the opening and end moves of Sandan, the jump in Godan, etc). So, if we take the view that Channan is an independent kata, why attribute those motions to other classical kata and not Channan? What is it that so clearly marks the separation?

shoshinkanuk wrote:
For me I see a fundamental difference in Pinan 3,4 and 5 when compared to Pinan 1 and 2 in terms of complexity and embusen etc, this supports my view.

Interesting! I’d be grateful if you could expand of the differences in complexity and embusen that you see that you feel support the notion 1 and 2 have different origins to 3,4 & 5?

Many thanks for this. It’s a fascinating area of discussion!

All the best,

Iain  

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

I have to disagree.  Mabuni Kenwa and Kenzo have often stated that Itosu created the Pinan katas, and that they were an analysis of Kosokun Dai, and that he openly stated this as fact.  I don't think Itosu would misdirect Mabuni Kenwa on this, as Kenwa was the person Itosu chose as the hereditary successor of all that Itosu did.

Now, maybe he created Pinan Shodan first, the Nidan, took a break and then created the remaining 3, who knows, but Kenzo Mabuni my instructor, was very adamant  on the fact that Itsosu created the Pinans.

What I do wonder, is, Pinan is an old Japanese way of saying Heian, closely related to a Chinese dialect.

Could Channan be the same word, just the original Okinawan language?

Does anyone here speak Okinawan to attempt to prove disprove my question?  I'd really like to know.

The reason I wonder this is because Mabuni Kenzo once told me that Japanese was not an eloquent language to discuss Karate in.  His father, Miyagi, and even Funokoshi, when they would visit, would always discuss Karate in Okinawan or Chinese.

So also with that, I've often wondered if English is eloquent enough to discuss Karate in.

Mr P
Mr P's picture

I attended Iain's seminar in Telford on Sunday and was taught the flow drill above for H Yondan. I'm glad you have posted it Iain as in the short space of time since I managed to forget one of the moves! Great seminar, thank you and thanks to Tau for forming our training trio there.

I read a book not so long ago titled Channan lost kata by Elmar Schmeiser. The general gist if I remember correctly was that Itosu created it and then discarded it as if it was a precursor to the Pinans. Almost like a practice run at creating kata!

I will dig it out of the book case and re read it.

Nice interpretation by Lester on the opening moves, thanks for sharing, will try that tonight. 

Alan

Mr P
Mr P's picture

Dale, I think you raise a good point about Language and karate discussion. Lots of problems in translating between Okinawan, Japanes and English in either direction. I think it has caused lots of confusion and misinterpretation. I am sure there is a cultural dimension too.

 

Alan

Jason Lester
Jason Lester's picture

Hi Alan,

thankyou for the kind words and pleased you like the demo : )

Hi Dale, you have raised an interesting point there indeed.

I would just like to add that in Gichin Funakoshi's ToTe Jitsu the Pinan / Heian Kata are called Binan, i have raised this before on a post in the past. i am not sure if Binan is the chinese pronounciation???

really interesting post guys : )

Kind regards,

Jason

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

Mr P wrote:

I read a book not so long ago titled Channan lost kata by Elmar Schmeiser. The general gist if I remember correctly was that Itosu created it and then discarded it as if it was a precursor to the Pinans. Almost like a practice run at creating kata!

Elmar's source for Channan was a 16 year old Thai kid that had immigrated to the USA from Thailand or some such source.   I'd be cautious on that.

I'm not making that up either.

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

Im pretty sure Binan is a typo by the publishers Jason, it was discussed years ago on ebudo (from memory) by some very academic and well researched chaps.

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

So, talking to a Chinese person today, and literally hundreds of Chinese dialects, Channan could possibly be the same word just in a different dialect of Chinese.

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

Hi Dale,

Pinan and Channan translate to roughtly the same meaning, variations around 'peace', the ancient capital of the Tang Dynasty (relevant in relation to the old writing of Karate, i.e Tang Hand) was Chang'an which translates as perpetual peace. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang'an).

My thoughts are either Pinan 1 & 2 are derived from an older Chinese form of Long Fist Boxing represented by the Quan, Channan or all of the Pinan, i.e 1,2,3,4,5 are.

I feel based on the technical representation, simple nature of Pinan 1 and 2 and the embusen that they are more likley derived from whatever Channan was and Itosu Sensei added 3,4 and 5 to modified 'Channan' i.e Pinan 1 and 2 to complete his modern system for inclusion within the middle school system of Okinawa.

And a grand job he did of course!

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

I'd agree if the Long Fist Boxing by the Quan was also Kosokun Dai's source.  

All 5 Pinan's embody what is Kosokun Dai.  I find it too much of a coincidence that Mabuni taught that it was an analysis of Kosokun Dai by his master Itosu for it not to be true.

 

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

Dale, 

Well I also beleive that Kusanku is a very old form, but lets focus on Pinan- copied from earlier in this post-

Channan: The Lost Kata of Itosu? By Joe Swift wrote:

References to Channan can be found as far back as 1934. In the karate research journal entitled Karate no Kenkyu, published by Nakasone Genwa, Motobu Choki is quoted referring to the Channan and the Pinan kata:

"(Sic.) I was interested in the martial arts since I was a child, and studied under many teachers. I studied with Itosu Sensei for 7-8 years. At first, he lived in Urasoe, then moved to Nakashima Oshima in Naha, then on to Shikina, and finally to the villa of Baron Ie. He spent his final years living near the middle school.

I visited him one day at his home near the school, where we sat talking about the martial arts and current affairs. While I was there, 2-3 students also dropped by and sat talking with us. Itosu Sensei turned to the students and said 'show us a kata.' The kata that they performed was very similar to the Channan kata that I knew, but there were some differences also. Upon asking the student what the kata was, he replied 'It is Pinan no Kata.' The students left shortly after that, upon which I turned to Itosu Sensei and said 'I learned a kata called Channan, but the kata that those students just performed now was different. What is going on?' Itosu Sensei replied 'Yes, the kata is slightly different, but the kata that you just saw is the kata that I have decided upon. The students all told me that the name Pinan is better, so I went along with the opinions of the young people.' These kata, which were developed by Itosu Sensei, underwent change even during his own lifetime." (Murakami, 1991; 120)

 

From memory I read this in the Pat McCarthy Sensei translation of Motobu's 'My Karate' as well. A clear link between an older form, Channan and an undetermined Pinan kata.

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Ok folks,

here is another theory. My main man in Karate research is my fellow German landsman Henning Wittwer.

Here is his theory in regards to Channan.

Sakagami Ryusho famous for his Kata book "Karate-Do Kata Taikan" wrote that Itosu created the Pinan by dissecting the Kushanku and adding his own take on things. He later wrote that the Pinan were formerly known as Channan. Then he wrote that the origin of those Kata are to be found in an old chinese military manual which is the "Chi-Hsiao Hsin-Shu" by a certain chinese general by the name of CH'i Chi-Kuang. (I am using the Wade Giles transcription here not Pinyin!!!)

In that manual, published in 1562, general Ch'i Chi-Kuang describes how important the empty hand fighting is for his military training. He called it the basics of weaponry. Acording to him he took the fighting style of Emperor T'ai Tsu which was a Long Fist Style (Ch'ang-Ch'üan - Long Fist). He took the best stuff out and wrote them down. The result was a form that contains 32 gestures. During his career he operated in all over China and he trained thousands of soldiers all over the country for the huge amount of military campains he was part in. So this Long Fist style spread throughout China.

Over the years that style could have developed further so that in 1756 a millitary attache by the name of Kung Hsiang-Chün (aka Kushanku) came to Okinawa and taught this Long Fist style to Karate Sakugawa. Due to the fact that Kushanku was in the military it is not unlikely that he had learned Long Fist Boxing there. Sakugawa learned two Kata from Kushanku and taught them to Matsumura, one named after his master Kushanku and one that was simply called Long Fist or Ch'ang Ch'üan which eventually became Channan. Kushankus methods should be easy to learn, no need for great preknowledge. Remember it was used to train simple people making soldiers out of them.

So Soken Hohan told Mark Bishop that Matsumura already taught Pinan Shodan and Nidan. On the other hand Nakama Chozo told Bishop that Itosu learn Channan from a chinese man. This second claim would trace the Channan directly back from Itosu to a Chinese who learned it from someone who learned it in the military. Remember that Long Fist spread all over the place.

Henning Wittwer tends to believe the first statement due to his analysis of those 32 positions or gestures in this military manual. And when you look at them you will find gestures that are in Kushanku and the Pinan and there are gestures that are exclusive to either Kushanku or Pinan.

So according to this, Itosu might have learned Pinan Shodan and Nidan as Channan Shodan and Nidan and made five Kata out of them like he did with Kushanku forming the Kushanku Sho renaming them to Pinan.

I hope that this makes sense. I buy that theory.

Regards Holger 

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

shoshinkanuk wrote:

Dale, 

Well I also beleive that Kusanku is a very old form, but lets focus on Pinan- copied from earlier in this post-

Channan: The Lost Kata of Itosu? By Joe Swift wrote:

References to Channan can be found as far back as 1934. In the karate research journal entitled Karate no Kenkyu, published by Nakasone Genwa, Motobu Choki is quoted referring to the Channan and the Pinan kata:

"(Sic.) I was interested in the martial arts since I was a child, and studied under many teachers. I studied with Itosu Sensei for 7-8 years. At first, he lived in Urasoe, then moved to Nakashima Oshima in Naha, then on to Shikina, and finally to the villa of Baron Ie. He spent his final years living near the middle school.

I visited him one day at his home near the school, where we sat talking about the martial arts and current affairs. While I was there, 2-3 students also dropped by and sat talking with us. Itosu Sensei turned to the students and said 'show us a kata.' The kata that they performed was very similar to the Channan kata that I knew, but there were some differences also. Upon asking the student what the kata was, he replied 'It is Pinan no Kata.' The students left shortly after that, upon which I turned to Itosu Sensei and said 'I learned a kata called Channan, but the kata that those students just performed now was different. What is going on?' Itosu Sensei replied 'Yes, the kata is slightly different, but the kata that you just saw is the kata that I have decided upon. The students all told me that the name Pinan is better, so I went along with the opinions of the young people.' These kata, which were developed by Itosu Sensei, underwent change even during his own lifetime." (Murakami, 1991; 120)

 

From memory I read this in the Pat McCarthy Sensei translation of Motobu's 'My Karate' as well. A clear link between an older form, Channan and an undetermined Pinan kata.

I see no reason to believe Channan was a different form from that text.  He clearly states it was slightly different, if Itosu had created it, he may have changed it from one generation of students to another.

Can you at least explain the similarity of Kosokun Dai throughout the Pinan kata?  I'm still waiting for that.

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

Ky0han, I like your theory.  

And since Ryusho Sakagami was Mabuni's student it makes sense to follow what Mabuni taught about Pinan's being a study of Kosokun, Kushanku for the less proactive readers.

As to it being Kosokun Sho, maybe.  We may never know.

It might also jive with the origin's of Kosokun Dai, the original being Chatan Yara no Kushanku.

Soke Mabuni said Kushanku taught that form to Yara at Chatan.  

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Dale, in regards to Kosokun/Kushanku/Kanku Sho. I think we have to refrain from the idea of an original Kata. When Kushanku taught his methods he might have taught an original Kata. Maybe he taught Yara a different form than Sakugawa. Maybe Sakugawa and Yara formed their own Kata after being taught Kushankus way of fighting. Maybe Yara put everthing into one form and Sakugawa put the methods in two forms (Kushanku, Channan). Who will ever know.

Sakagami lists Kosokun/Kushanku/Kanku Sho as a Kata of Itosus. Maybe Itosu came accross the Yara Kushanku and took some methods out there to form an additional Kushanku (which he named the younger/newer Kushanku or Kushanku Sho).

Regards Holger

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

Hi Dale,

Can you at least explain the similarity of Kosokun Dai throughout the Pinan kata?  I'm still waiting for that.

Im afraid you will need to wait as I haven't trained Kosokun Dai for over 18 years, when I look at this several years ago I felt that Pinan 3,4 and 5 had significant elements of some of the classical kata. Whereas Pinan 1 and 2 did not.

But like everything when looking at karate, it never seems to be clear cut.

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Hi Holger et al.

Just to help my understanding and others, who like me, are hard of thinking.. I have drawn a little diagram:

 photo TheHistoryofthePinans.jpg

Does that bascally cover what Henning Wittwer is suggesting?

Cheers

Tom

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Tom,

yeah pretty much. Don't know about the influence of Channan on his overall understanding and changing of Kata but as a matter of fact Itosu was the creator of several Kata including the Pinan-Gata series. He publicly taught them in 1904 for the first time as far as I know. But he definitely must have put a lot of work into them.

Either Kushanku himself taught forms (Kushanku, Channan) differently to different folks according to their physical needs or the Okinawans formulated them after the methods he taught. I would guess that the Okinawans created the forms. Thus we have Matsumura Kushanku, Yara Kushanku, Channan Shodan and Nidan that should have been taught by Matsumura.

Where Itosu learned Channan is also not clear. Wittwers theory is that he learned it from Matsumura which is backed up by the statements of Sakagami and Soken.

Regards Holger

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