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Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture
My worst brawl

I read with interest peoples opinions on kata, self-defence, combat sport etc.  We never seem to see though if the skills they have trained in really helped, as people are reluctant to share practical experiences for fear of either being seen as a braggart or a fantacist.

I'm neither and I appreciate my experience is limited.  But to start the thread off I'll post my worst brawling experience here and the lessons learnt.  Maybe others will add their own.

The Tavern in the Town in 1970's Leicester was a rough pub that served as a staging post for the Leicester City mob, always identifiable by their blazor badges of 'Semper Eadem', the city motto.  The bar area upstairs was friendly enough, but the disco downstairs was more rough.  If you were known you got in easily, but the doormen kept a watchful eye at the head of the stairs.  The only way in or out was one staircase.  There was a fire exit downstairs that was chained up  (This was before the terrible Stardust tragedy in Dublin that saw the laws changed)  There was supposed to be a doorman on duty there to open up in an emergency, but he was usually trying his luck with a female somewhere and away from his post.

On one particular night the doormen must have been asleep because about a dozen strangers came in (rumour had it they had paid them off)  and started looking for Sid, a local lad that had been involved in a fight in the Palais the week before.  They found him and tried to drag him out, Sid's friends intervened ...

There followed the worst 15 or so minutes of violence I have ever experienced.  Everyone was armed with bottles or glasses, soon thrown in the Braveheart archery style.  ("Beg pardon sir!  Won't we hit our own troops?"  "Yes, but we'll hit their's as well")

As I didn't know Sid I decided it wasn't my fight and that leaving via the stairs was the sensible option.  To do so was impossible so I started pushing people out of the way.  That rapidly escalated into violence as everyone had the same idea and took umbrage at being moved further from safety.  Before long, everyone was involved.  Some fighting to get at Sid.  Some fighting to defend Sid.  Some fighting to escape.  Some fighting to escape first.  (I was in the latter group)

So on to the crux of things.  What worked?   First, keeping your hands up.  Flying glass was a danger so grabbing people with both hands left your head exposed.  Second, keeping close.  Not that you had a choice.  A scrum for the stairs meant kicking was out of the question.  Third, jawline strikes.  Nothing got people out of the way better than a smack in the mouth.  Not pulling them, not throwing them, not groundwork, a good old fashioned smack in the mouth, repeated as neccessary. Luckily for me I was standing drinking with a lad called (ironically) Rocky who was a first rate boxer and in that environment he was ace.  He must have knocked half a dozen down and cut a path to the stairs.  We followed stamping on people and adding punches/elbows/knees of our own.  

We luckily got up the stairs and out before the police arrived, but the OiC and 3 PC's took one look at the mass of bodies still fighting downstairs and wisely stood guard at the top until things had calmed down. A stream of ambulances followed.  The saddest thing was seeing lots of girls who a few minutes before had been dancing happily being led up stairs with blood pouring from cuts.  Throwing glasses is the most gutless way of pub fighting imaginable.

Did my training help?  

After the initial "Oh shit!" I felt as I saw things getting ugly I just concentrated on hitting people.  Unlike some I was not swinging wildly but seemed to be able to pick my targets.  I won't brag or lie and say I dropped loads.  Even those I did might have been drunk or otherwise restricted so I take no pride in it.  My strikes seemed to do the job though and apart from a cut on my head from flying glass I was unscathed.  I was seventeen years old and had been training for two years.  I didn't think about what to use or where. Training at the time was repetition, repetition, repetition, so things just came naturally.

Main lesson:  I stopped drinking in the Tavern in the Town.

Gary

Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

Now this is an good thread. Looking forward to reading some good "stories"

I don't have any brawls that have lasted this long, just no longer than 1 min or so.

Got in a fight at one night club few punches flying, he grabbed a glass and for some reason I just punched the glass whilst it was still in his hand, It shattered to the floor, he looked at the glass, looked at me, looked at the glass turned around and walked away.

A few scuffles in clubs, a few road rage incidents, I got loads of them but don't think them worthy after reading your post Gary

JWT
JWT's picture

I'd have to go back 17 years.

I was on holiday with 3 mates in Whitchurch of all places.  One of our group, a posh skinny southerner, was roughed up outside the gents.  We left our pints and took him outside as he was pretty shaken up.

Against my better judgement he insisted on going back inside, saying he didn't feel safe outside in case the guy had left, so he wanted to check he was there.  So back in we went, with the guy who had been roughed up leading the way, my two mates in the middle, and reluctantly me at the back.

The bar was in the center of the pub facing the door. To our left was the tourist half where we'd been, to our right the locals half. The two were joined in front of the bar and by a passageway at the rear which led to the ladies and gents.  As soon as we went in I sensed a reaction and a change in atmosphere in the local side, but my friend was moving so fast through the tourist side I couldn't catch up.  As we went round the back my two mates in the middle tailed off into the gents. Almost as soon as we went round the corner I'd just caught up with my mate when the local idiot who'd seen him before got up from his table with a roar and went for him. My mate was so light that a single push sent him flying and then this chap went for me with a right haymaker. I took the haymaker, turned with his momentum, and ran with it, slamming him into a wall having covered much of the room. Before I could land a single punch I was grabbed from behind, dragged to the ground, held there, and then stomped on while at least 2 different people (I couldn't see faces) punched me in the head - about 8-12 punches - while my head was being held down by the hair.  It was very weird watching them come in. Nice bit of temporal distortion. The guy who'd gone for me was standing up and held back by 3 or 4 people.

Eventually some guy called a halt and we took his advice to go ( my mate who had been oushed had gone to the bar for help - the barman refused to intervene or call the Police).  About 2 minutes later our other mates joined us having relieved themselves in the gents.  The other chap insisted on calling the Police and a full riot van turned up.  I went to the station and gave a statement - but couldn't press any charges as the only person I could identify was the one who went for me and he hadn't landed a finger on me.  I had a broken nose, two black eyes, a cracked jaw and chipped front teeth along with heaily bruised ribs and kidneys.  It's the worst damage I've ever sustained outside training and the most in one go.  

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi All,

A quick post with my moderator hat on:

I’d ask people to consider a few things before posting in this thread:

1 – Don’t post anything you would not be happy having read out in court. If you’ve made stupid mistakes that could get you into legal trouble, you probably should not post the details here.

2 – Don’t post anything were the protagonists can be identified. Again, you don’t want to leave yourself vulnerable to people legally using that information against you i.e. slander, etc.

3 – Don’t post anything were you can be seen to be glorifying violence. We talk a lot about the wisdom and maturity involved in avoiding confrontation, and I’m sure no one would like to mistakenly give the impression that fighting is in anyway a good thing.

Cautionary tales and sharing hard-won lessons is a good thing, but I think we need to be careful about how this thread progresses. All of the above are good posts and I hope things continue in the same vein.

All the best,

Iain

Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Hi All,

A quick post with my moderator hat on:

I’d ask people to consider a few things before posting in this thread:

1 – Don’t post anything you would not be happy having read out in court. If you’ve made stupid mistakes that could get you into legal trouble, you probably should not post the details here.

2 – Don’t post anything were the protagonists can be identified. Again, you don’t want to leave yourself vulnerable to people legally using that information against you i.e. slander, etc.

3 – Don’t post anything were you can be seen to be glorifying violence. We talk a lot about the wisdom and maturity involved in avoiding confrontation, and I’m sure no one would like to mistakenly give the impression that fighting is in anyway a good thing.

Cautionary tales and sharing hard-won lessons is a good thing, but I think we need to be careful about how this thread progresses. All of the above are good posts and I hope things continue in the same vein.

All the best,

Iain

Yes, I had to put Official Secret Act into play LOL

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

Wise words Iain.  Most of my 'events' were last century but I still won't convict myself.

Gary

neil kenyon
neil kenyon's picture

Wise words Iain, i have been in a few not so nice situations. I learnt to box and then found myself in a dojo and have been in and out of them for many years. I have had to fight outside to defend myself and it is the scariest thing ever, not nice, not big and diffenately not clever. its viseral and it does happen in slow motion, looking back at it, but at the time its fast and full of fear, any body who says its not..... well you know what i mean. And, one mistake can leave you in a world of trouble. it leaves a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach and if it never happens to me again I will be very pleased. But lets always be prepared.

All the best.

Gary Chamberlain
Gary Chamberlain's picture

I echo everything you say Neil and like you I hope I am never in that position again.

It's often said but when you're a kid you think you can get stuck in and run away laughing about it.  It was only later I realised that one slip up was a potential life changer and maybe I needed to grow up.  There have been times in my life where I've felt strong and would walk anywhere or go in any pub without giving a toss.  Now age is a factor and with that good sense guides my course.

As I put above, I learnt to avoid a particular pub.  The list grew.  These days I avoid anywhere full of drunken idiots.

Gary

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

There’s no doubt that the older we get the less likely we are to be involved in violent incidents:

This is from the Office of National Statistics Website:

“The survey found that 3 in every 100 adults had been a victim of some form of violence in the preceding year (3.0%). The likelihood of becoming a victim of violent crime decreased with age, with a much higher proportion of adults aged 16-24 reporting they had been a victim (8.4%) than other age groups, particularly those aged 75 and over (0.2%). Gender comparisons highlighted a similar pattern of victimisation across age groups for both men and women, although the prevalence rate was highest among young men (11.0%).”

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/period-ending-march-2012/sty-a-victim-of-crime.html

Life experiences, change in priorities (i.e. children and other dependants), change in lifestyle (drinking and bars no longer being a key part of recreation), etc are what I feel accounts for this correlation with youth and violence. It’s not jus the fact we “mature”, but that as we grow older our lifestyle changes.

While many will have experienced violence more frequently in our youth, it will be much rarer as we grow older. Those of us who have moved into our fifth decade and beyond have the hindsight to point out to the next generation that insults, spilt drinks, ego, etc, etc are not worth fighting over and there are much more fun ways to spend time than in noisy, alcohol and testosterone driven environments. They won’t listen, just as we didn’t, but that does not mean we should not try.

The post in this thread are really good. I think we need more tales like this as they provide the alternative to the glorification of violence found in some quarters.

To quote a line from the TV show Malcolm in the Middle, “Precautionary tales should never end with the line, ‘It was so cool!’” :-)

All the best,

Iain

stevem
stevem's picture

The last time I had a 'real' fight was the night of the millenium. I'm currently 32 so I were quite a young lad at the time (though, of course, at the time I would have contested being called 'young'!). Whilst the details aren't important what I will say is I walked away from two blokes who didn't walk away and it simply boiled down to simplicity - no fancy kicks, no clever sweeps or locks, just brutal simplicity... or perhaps simple brutality, depending on your point of view. The first chap suffered a headbutt and a swift kick to the knee which put him down; the second was a shin-kick to the groin. It was over very quickly and I regret it ever happened, and it was hardly a brawl, but the common theme I'm seeing in the posts here is those who 'won' did so by being as effective as possible as quickly as possible.

JWT
JWT's picture

Hi Iain

The age statistics don't vary much year on year.

Over a six year period of collecting data from the old BCS (from 04/05 when they started including age differentiation as a data stream) I found that in terms of violent crime offenders the age figures were as follows:

(Figures given are the lowest recorded % in a year and the highest recorded % in a year)

Under 16: Lowest 8% Highest 14% 

16 - 24: Lowest 50% Highest 55%

25 - 39: Lowest 30% Highest 34%

40+: Lowest 12% Highest 13%

The bell curve for the ages of victims is similar.  As you say, natural age and career related  lifestyle changes reduce the risk of violence.  The most at risk group is naturally males in the 16-24 yr old bracket.

Contrary to common perception, the yearly percentages in terms of numbers of offenders involved in the (BCS) recorded violent crimes (04 to 11) were as follows:

1: Lowest 56% Highest 70%

2: Lowest 7% Highest 13%

3: Lowest 6% Highest 17%

4 or more: Lowest 17% Highest 26%

Hope that's of interest.

John Titchen

Mark B
Mark B's picture
I think I can add a couple of different accounts from past experience. Both learnt me lessons that have stayed with me and certainly influence the way I practice and teach. The first incident was 25 years ago . An individual became aggressive towards me. I could have walked away , ego dictated that I stood my ground. Punches were exchanged. The guy proceeded to try football type kicks. I took him down with a technique I would recognize years later as the tackle out of Kushanku! As often happens when you take someone down they grab hold of you , this caused me to go down too, fortunately on top and in his guard. I basically ground and pound. Fair enough. The moral of this story is what happened next. Someone unconnected to either of us had seen me take the guy down. He hadn't witnessed what preceded the altercation , only me bouncing the guy off the concrete. He intervened by wading into me as the "bad guy". Fortunately I managed to regain my feet and calm the good samaritan down. Stay on your - feet definitely. Don't assume bystanders will know who's done what , ignore ego. All lessons I've tried to learn over the years. My second account involves multiple opponents , a very popular subject for "practice" in martial arts. A friend and I were approached by a group of guys (7 or 8). I instantly new we had a problem and told my friend RUN!!!! Unfortunately my friend was unused to this type of environment, he froze. It happens. The group approached and surrounded us in the classic semi circle. One engaged in dialogue , I tried to diffuse the situation, it was whilst I was speaking I was hit from my right blindside with a right hand. The guy who I had been in dialogue with then waded in. At that point all I could do was throw punches but weight of numbers and the effect of the three or four shots was rendering them average at best. Eventually of course I went down where the boots started coming. I was an idiot in those days so tried to re engage which meant further punches and once down , kicks. I stayed down until the group finished the kicking and left. My friend was badly shaken , almost in shock , not too bad physically , I got the worst of that but psychologically he was in a bad way. I sustained a fractured right cheekbone, the inside of my mouth was cut to ribbons, a couple of broken ribs , a face swollen almost double. I don't have good memories of that - the scars in my mouth are still there and the right side of my face is always tender. I started karate later in life , I didn't do it as a child. I did real from 17 years old until I met my wife aged 28. I try and take positives from those accounts and others I could mention- none of which I'm proud. When I talk about staying on your feet, multiple opponents it comes from bitter experience. When I look at my daughter, who is eleven now , I shudder at what might have been if the kicking had continued , or turned to stamping. violence-It's a mugs game. Avoid it at all cost!!
Mark B
Mark B's picture
I think I can add a couple of different accounts from past experience. Both learnt me lessons that have stayed with me and certainly influence the way I practice and teach. The first incident was 25 years ago . An individual became aggressive towards me. I could have walked away , ego dictated that I stood my ground. Punches were exchanged. The guy proceeded to try football type kicks. I took him down with a technique I would recognize years later as the tackle out of Kushanku! As often happens when you take someone down they grab hold of you , this caused me to go down too, fortunately on top and in his guard. I basically ground and pound. Fair enough. The moral of this story is what happened next. Someone unconnected to either of us had seen me take the guy down. He hadn't witnessed what preceded the altercation , only me bouncing the guy off the concrete. He intervened by wading into me as the "bad guy". Fortunately I managed to regain my feet and calm the good samaritan down. Stay on your - feet definitely. Don't assume bystanders will know who's done what , ignore ego. All lessons I've tried to learn over the years. My second account involves multiple opponents , a very popular subject for "practice" in martial arts. A friend and I were approached by a group of guys (7 or 8). I instantly new we had a problem and told my friend RUN!!!! Unfortunately my friend was unused to this type of environment, he froze. It happens. The group approached and surrounded us in the classic semi circle. One engaged in dialogue , I tried to diffuse the situation, it was whilst I was speaking I was hit from my right blindside with a right hand. The guy who I had been in dialogue with then waded in. At that point all I could do was throw punches but weight of numbers and the effect of the three or four shots was rendering them average at best. Eventually of course I went down where the boots started coming. I was an idiot in those days so tried to re engage which meant further punches and once down , kicks. I stayed down until the group finished the kicking and left. My friend was badly shaken , almost in shock , not too bad physically , I got the worst of that but psychologically he was in a bad way. I sustained a fractured right cheekbone, the inside of my mouth was cut to ribbons, a couple of broken ribs , a face swollen almost double. I don't have good memories of that - the scars in my mouth are still there and the right side of my face is always tender. I started karate later in life , I didn't do it as a child. I did real from 17 years old until I met my wife aged 28. I try and take positives from those accounts and others I could mention- none of which I'm proud. When I talk about staying on your feet, multiple opponents it comes from bitter experience. When I look at my daughter, who is eleven now , I shudder at what might have been if the kicking had continued , or turned to stamping. violence-It's a mugs game. Avoid it at all cost!!