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Tau
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Iain Abernethy wrote:

When I put my health in the hands of a medical professional I want them operating to established medical procedure and defined good practise. Of course, what is good practise does change over time as a result of new studies, but I’d be very unhappy to hear of any medial professional “going their own way” like that. I’m sure that here in the UK that would result in the person being banned from practising medicine.

...

I therefore don’t find anecdotal evidence of medical professionals using unapproved procedures convincing; indeed it calls me to question their professional competence because they are acting unprofessionally, unethically and probably illegally.

If these methods were found to have value – via the scientific process – they would undoubtedly be included as good practise. Seeing as they are not, then I find myself compelled to go where the bulk of the evidence leads me.

Acupuncture is provided by chartered physiotherapists who undergone training. I believe reflexology is available. And aromatherapy.

Admittedly, as far I'm aware, they are are only carried out in low-risk situations. Acupuncture is certainly used as one possible treatment for some acute and some chronic injuries.

Evan Pantazi
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No problem in answering Iain, as that is my journey in Kyusho and I guess the Martial Arts as well.

I am very glad people are tuning in onthis thread as I see it Vital to anyone that wants additional depth in their respective style or art.

Disclaimer:  I am not a medical professional, this is just relating experiences and research over the years with medical professionals and or otherhealth related scientists.

Let's look at balance issue first, when a body is shocked, often time the blood pressure also drops the normal stasis or balance inthis pressure is offset. The body falls to a prone position for the blood pressure to re-balance as the blood flow to the brain is restored.  This of course is just one example and quite short in description, but the message is clear... this can happen by just hitting the nerve in your elbow called the funny bone.

This brings us to "Overload", now staying on the same example above, a Vasovagal syncope can occur in response to a shock or trigger and have a corresponding malfunction in the parts of the nervous system that regulate heart rate and blood pressure. This is but one example and there are many medical waysto test these asthat is what they do each surgical procedure (and of course others).

In these two answers above and in the same line, the body needs to shut down many functions (like in the fight or flight responses), so the body can accomplish more pressing tasks and or incur higher damage level or possible damage.  In the case above a lack of blood and oxygen to the brain will cause brain damage.

I did not suggest that the body NEEDS to go unconscious, merely that sometimes it does... to what level is dependant on so many variables that they cannot be listed here.

Another aspect of an overloaded nerves is central nervous system fatigue.  This is a complex and multifaceted phenomenon that involves peripheral muscle fatigue and the failure to initiate and/or sustain voluntary drive to the muscles by the nerve system. So say you strike your funny bone as example your body instantly and very abruptly fires many muscle groups all at once... this is not only taxing on the muscles, but also on blood and nerve messaging to accomplish this.  Once stressed to fatigue another lighter shock can reset or spark the sensory nerves and so on.  Think of this; you bump your head on the corner of a cabinet which sends an acute sensory nerve signal to the brain, there are many symptoms that can occur up to and including unconsciousness.  If not unconscious, you reflexively rub your head to add many smaller sensory nerve messages to reduce the acuity of the first input.  I know a basic explaination but similar and readily understandable to all that have done this.

Doctors the world over and historically have acted out of the accepted norms to find a solution and many discoveries and advancements from these actions have benefitted us all.  By the way, this same doctor is a micro surgeon that speaks in many a medical instituion and collegues on limb reattachement (his specialy in which he invented several innovations (not the normal accepted procedure/s).  He was also on hand during the drug wars of Mexico to fix the officers, civilians and even the drug cartel members that were shot and or otherwise injured seriously. Did he act incorrectly if he helped his patients, with new procedures out of thenorm, no he was lauded for it... this is how we progress.  

Of course each to their own preference and opinion, I am not here to convince, merely relate experiences.  

I am also not pessimistic I am very optomistic about the future as changes and awakening is happening in all fields.  That said it is very common knowledge that Doctors and Pharmacuetical companies have fought say canabis oil as a treatment for cancer, even though it has and does work, as the profits may not be there for them.  But because someone went beyond the accepted norm,the medical community and even governments are also getting on board slowly.

Slowly and by one person/entity at a time even these "revivals" may be adopted as well.

Change in the world has only ever come by people who were on the outside of the box... with a differing point of view., like yourself with your thoughts and methods of working with Kata.

Sincerely,

Evan Pantazi

Marc
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Evan, thank you for joining the conversation and for your insight.

Evan Pantazi wrote:

One contestant recieved a great shot up under the side of the jaw with a kick that isntantly dropped them unconscious. [...] I sat down next to him and when he looked at me his pupils were still a bit dialated and he was in another place not fully there. I asked him if I could try something to help to which he agreed. Since I saw the strike, how it landed, what it did to his body, I worked the revival (restorative measure) which brought him back to focus... a thank you, a handshake and that was that.

Could you maybe share some more information on what your restorative measure of choice was in this anecdote and how it helped bring him back to focus?

Marc wrote:

How do these revival methods work? How do they relate to the anatomical structures that have been hit?

Evan Pantazi wrote:

So say you strike your funny bone as example your body instantly and very abruptly fires many muscle groups all at once... this is not only taxing on the muscles, but also on blood and nerve messaging to accomplish this.  Once stressed to fatigue another lighter shock can reset or spark the sensory nerves and so on.  Think of this; you bump your head on the corner of a cabinet which sends an acute sensory nerve signal to the brain, there are many symptoms that can occur up to and including unconsciousness.  If not unconscious, you reflexively rub your head to add many smaller sensory nerve messages to reduce the acuity of the first input.  I know a basic explaination but similar and readily understandable to all that have done this.

Thanks for this basic explanation. In this example it makes sense then to rub the area around the point where you've hit your head. But from what I've seen in kyusho sometimes the restorative measure is applied to other parts of the body then those that have been hit. I would love to understand more of the concepts behind the restorative measures, because I think that understanding the underlying principles is much more helpful that memorising if-then-scenarios (same thing as with bunkai/self-defence).

Marc

Evan Pantazi
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Marc thanks for the great question, most people ask about the KO, but it is such a small part of Kyusho, albeit more of an ego booster for some... and let's face it, it is not difficult to put someone down, it is far more challenging to pick them back up (and therefore the educational aspect is far stronger).

Now let's take as an example the restorative method for a stopped diapgragm; this is not the arm method some employ on youtube as that is better suited for diaphramatic spasm such as hiccups or the stitch in your side from over exertion.

Let's look at a scenario where the diaphragm has stopped functioning from an attack on the neck.  This can be initiated with a strike to the neck as the phrenic nerve is pinched between the cervical vertabrae (C4 primarily).  This nerve sends motor messaging (innervation function) as well as recieving sensory messaging.  Click Here for more info:  http://teachmeanatomy.info/neck/nerves/phrenic/

So the cessation of motor function to the diaphragm, due to a rapid pinching of the nerve at the cervical area, can be stimulated by sending an acute message via the sensory nerves back from the diaphragm.

So to accomplish this we must first sit the individual down so that the legs are not commanding motor function.  Next we lean the individual back to take the pressure off the abdominal region and diaphragm in particular.  This position also make the nerves and muscle stretch out as the shock will reverbarate more, (think of a tight guitar string making a different vibration and frequency than a loose one), this will be a more acute message.  As we strike the area one inch under the nipples as well as off to the side another inch, this not only sends an acute sensory message to the brain via local nerves, it also directly shocks the diaphragm where it attaches to the ribs (similar in concept to the cardial thump in CPR (accepted medical response)).  This restarts the diaphramaic action and breathing.

Of course this is a brief scenario and there are a bit more pieces of the puzzle and method... the scope of which is better expained in action than written word.

Here is an article I wrote a while back on this very thing... not with the revival but a coupe of examples of someone recieving a blow to the neck and audible problems in breathing.  http://www.kyusho.com/hey-coach/

I hope this helps in understanding the process in a simplified and comprehensible manner.

Iain Abernethy
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Tau wrote:
Acupuncture is provided by chartered physiotherapists who undergone training. I believe reflexology is available. And aromatherapy.

Admittedly, as far I'm aware, they are only carried out in low-risk situations. Acupuncture is certainly used as one possible treatment for some acute and some chronic injuries.

I’ve no issue with people partaking in such things if they find them useful. People can opt to pay for “alternative” treatments if they wish. That’s personal choice. I’m also OK with private practitioners of some aspects of established medicine (i.e. physiotherapists) offering things like acupuncture, reflexology, etc as part of their business for private customers. That’s probably better than the “pure reflexology place” because at least they have some genuine medical training and therefore are more likely to be aware of the limits of these “alternatives”. It’s free country and people are therefore free to make choices about such things for themselves.

What I would have a major problem with is a medical professional making a choice for me when I was unconscious and opting to move away from established good practise.

I would also have a problem with a trusted medical professional recommending or advising any “treatment” that had not been shown to be scientifically effective in preference to one that has.

Mitchell and Webb express my scepticism very well (especially ay 2 mins):

I also recall the comedian Jack Dee saying that no one want’s to be at the scene of a bad car crash and hear the words, “Make way! May way! For I am a herbalist! Oh, yes … what this person needs is parsley and plenty of it!” ;-)

As individuals, people can believe whatever they want and make their own choices based on their beliefs. So long as they are informed choices – and they are not putting themselves in danger because of misinformation – then that’s OK with me.

However, when I got to a medical expert for their expert opinion, I want that option to be based on thorough research and scientific study. At that point, if they go with their “personal belief” they are denying me, as someone who is not a medical expert, access to what has been shown to be most effective. Thankfully procedures exist to help prevent that.

Indeed, the very first point of the modern Hippocratic Oath has people swear to abide by the scientific method:

“I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.”

Evan Pantazi wrote:
No problem in answering Iain, as that is my journey in Kyusho and I guess the Martial Arts as well …

I appreciate it. I think that post explains where you are coming from and gives readers the information to follow up further if they wish.

Evan Pantazi wrote:
Of course each to their own preference and opinion, I am not here to convince, merely relate experiences.

I always think the best threads are where that happens. Consensus rarely results in a topic being thoroughly explored. People trying to “win the argument” and “convert” also does not tend to make for interesting discussion or reading. The best information comes out them we get alternative views bouncing off one another with an attempt to understand the opposing view and explain our own (irrespective of whether there is any movement in those positions).

I think this has been a thorough thread with lots of good information being shared. I’m sure people will enjoy reading it and will also find what is put forth useful in determining their own viewpoint. Thanks for your key role in that.

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

I’ve no issue with people partaking in such things if they find them useful. People can opt to pay for “alternative” treatments if they wish. That’s personal choice. I’m also OK with private practitioners of some aspects of established medicine (i.e. physiotherapists) offering things like acupuncture, reflexology, etc as part of their business for private customers. That’s probably better than the “pure reflexology place” because at least they have some genuine medical training and therefore are more likely to be aware of the limits of these “alternatives”. It’s free country and people are therefore free to make choices about such things for themselves.

How about GPs or consultants referring patients for acupuncture in the NHS. Because that does happen. I freely concede that the benefits may be placebo in this case.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

What I would have a major problem with is a medical professional making a choice for me when I was unconscious and opting to move away from established good practise.

As a medical professional... I completely agree.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Mitchell and Webb express my scepticism very well (especially ay 2 mins):

Were I not in work yesterday I'd have shared this. It's funny and worryingly accurate in places.

And rest assured; I'm a believer in Kyushu but I have my feet on the ground. I drink alcohol little these days but I'd have no problem using LI4 to help with a hangover. What harm can it do? But in the event of first aid on seminar or even passing an RTC (been there, done that) you'll find me sticking to know, proven, accepted and safe western methods of life preservation. I have a great track record. But no parsely!

Evan Pantazi
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No problem Sir, it has been a pleasure... and thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.

This is also very timely as I heard a great quote that I will keep from of all places Downton Abbey (yes I like the show).  The quote was from the Butler saying "my life has formed my opinion".

So thank you again, people know where to find me if further questions arise.

In grattitude,

Evan Pantazi

Iain Abernethy
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Tau wrote:
How about GPs or consultants referring patients for acupuncture in the NHS. Because that does happen. I freely concede that the benefits may be placebo in this case.

If it’s being used as a “complementary treatment”, the scientifically proven methods are still being applied, and the patient like the idea and finds it useful, then I’m OK with that.

As shown in the documentary I linked to above, placebo works for certain medical conditions … and I’m OK with people using things that work.

Tau wrote:
As a medical professional... I completely agree.

I had a feeling you might ;-)

Tau wrote:
And rest assured; I'm a believer in Kyushu but I have my feet on the ground. I drink alcohol little these days but I'd have no problem using LI4 to help with a hangover. What harm can it do? But in the event of first aid on seminar or even passing an RTC (been there, done that) you'll find me sticking to know, proven, accepted and safe western methods of life preservation. I have a great track record. But no parsely!

I think that’s a solid position to take. Good to know you won’t be reaching for the crystals if I injure myself ;-)

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

Interesting article in my e-mail newsfeed today

(I tried to add the link, but access to the full article is password protected)

The journal Acupunture in Medicine only yesterday (15.2.16) published a study that showed patients with fibromyalgia found relief from their symptoms by recieving acupuncture treatment. The study took place over a year and compared genuine acupuncture with a "placebo" of random acupuncture needle placement. The study concluded that acupuncture should be a recommended treatment for this condition

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