Kata / gradings & belts

Jason

Excellent Post, I'm at work at present so will read it again later.

Shukokai is your Ryu, Do they not have 42+ Kata in their Syllabus to begin with?

It would be good to have a minimal amount of Kata I have 17 but would like to whittle it down to 9

 I hate "Karate" punching, the Oi Tzuki Gakku Tzuki stuff, when you fight you never punch light that so why practice it as "puinching" I teach my Students to punch "like" Boxers

OSU

I think that you, and other posters bringing up similar ideas are all on the right track.  After years of researching on my own I finally gave up on finding a dojo/sensei who taught like you are suggesting.  I went through ever sensei and black belt I could find around my home town, coming up short every time.  All 3K Shotokan all the time.  Great guys.  Very 3K technical and capable...but no bunkai.  No applications or the standard JKA block and punch for 6' away.

Finally I discovered that my neighbor was a 5th degree black belt in Shotokan, we talked over my desires and he welcomed me to where he was training and eventually where he opened up his own Dojo.  Even though he didn't learn like I wanted to...or teach like I wanted to learn, after some beers and some chats he was on board.  So since he is a big fan of giving the upper kyu ranks their turns at instructing...I take ALL of those opportunities to introduce applications within the kata.

It's been good.  Every chance I get, we spend the time working on a kata and bunkai from that kata before we move on.  Spending extra time on complimentary concpets within the basics.

The moral of my story?  Even though I am not a black belt, nor the head of the school...I finally found a place I can train the way I want...by pulling the ship my way a little at a time.  In time...who knows...my sensei may be where you are and adding applications as a requirement for rank...which will necessarily shorten the kata list for rank and make the students spend more time on each kata.

There's hope.

Chris

P.S.  Having a student who's of higher rank that you, get that a-ha moment when they learn how to apply something basic like hikite for the first time, priceless. 

Hi guys, firstly to Ken.

In shukokai there are many kata, far to many, up to 1st Dan as said before i had to know 14 kata, from 1st Dan to 3rd Dan i had to learn a further 4 katas. For my 4th Dan in which i currently hold that rank i was awarded due to time served and experiance etc.

Im currently training for my 5th Dan as i would like to take a physical examination for this, although im not due for another couple of years.

Going back to shukokai, a great style, one of the hardest hitting styles due to the double hip twist, however, like many styles its sports orientated. It seemed that if you werent interested in competitions (i wasnt)  you got left out and pushed aside inwhich this is why i left the shukokai style. I feel if karate were taught more realistically there wouldnt be so many breaks in associations etc, this is why all these reality street fighting systems keep popping up everywhere, it seems more appealing to people, again if more time was spent on teaching karate for the defensive art it is and less competition then there would be more fuller dojos throughout the world.

Karate is still very popular, kata is the soul of karate and the bunkai is key. What people seem to forget is that kata was never developed for competitions, there were no belts, gradings or competitions back in the time of master Itosu etc, he wasnt a black belt or world champion, however he was a formiddable steet fighter.

Karate vs karate is, how i see it is rather pointless in the sense that as said above no one would punch oi zuki in the street, unless of course they are a fellow karate-ka, and lets face it they should no better. Karate vs karate training is important for technique etc, but when training bunkai, train against wild swings, headbutts and so on.

Locks and holds, again great training but dont let your partner go with it because im sorry in the street that just wouldnt happen, if you are lucky enough to get someone in a lock or hold in the street that person will struggle against it and thats the best way i feel to train in the dojo. Get your partner in a lock then get them to struggle against it to see if they can escape, someone who is naturally stronger than you wont have a problem escaping. Train techiques under stress, its the closest you will get to reality.

Going back to the oi zuki, its a vital technique in which depending how you study it, like all techniques if you dont look for a deeper meaning then you will only see it as a oi zuki. Try it side on to a partner, grab their right wrist with your left hand, step through, the oi zuki then becomes a very neat take down. Example only.

To Clouviere: Its great you have found a way to train the way you want, it is of no matter that you are not a Dan grade. Someone could train for 20 years as a white belt and through knowledge and fighting capability get the better of a 7th or 8th Dan.

A couple of years ago i saw a total novice (begginner) beat a 7th Dan who had been training for years and years, im not talking about point sparring here. So, karate or whatever your chosen discipline, the art should be in your mind and heart, not about whats round your waist.

In 2004 i founded my own style (Jikoboei Ryu) i must stress i dont belive in styles, karate is karate. I got fed up with all the politics within karate and wanted to follow my own path, Jikoboei Ryu is no different from any other traditional style, however we make use of both the cat and back stance throughout the Pinan / Heian katas where other styles favour one or the other.

Its important that individuals follow their own path if they want to but its vital that a high standard, kata, bunkai and basics maintain within karate.

As long as we are all learning, enjoying, acheiveing and passing on these wounderfull martial arts then they will never die.

Kind regards,

Jason

Jason,

It really boils down to a question of breadth vs. depth when it comes to training.  Or it seems that way to me.  My trouble with the number of kata taught in most styles really began six or seven years ago when I started working on the applications for kata in depth.  Before, under a prior instructor it had been part of my training, but not a major focus.  With the last two instructors I've worked with working on the application of the kata has been very important to what we do.  As such, we have more and more time occupied by partner work on kata.  When kata becomes a two step proccess of learning the basic movement, then applications and principals, it's a very time consuming thing.  And, if  you are looking to get back to the heart of karate, I think a slower, more in depth approach is the one to take.  Linking karate's combative abilities and principles back to it's kata are what give kata it's value.  Without that value, there isn't really a need to practice them, not from a self defense or combatve stand point at least.  If a style/system has a sport orientation, and there are some valid things that sport and competition bring to karate, then kata for the sake of competition/promotion is fine.  Then just the aesthetic judgement is okay. 

Now I find myself not fitting into the mold of most "styles" wanting to shorten the kata list.  Not as much as you are talking  about, but pulling the Pinan/Hiean series completely out, keeping at least one Nanhanchi/Tekki and perhaps 4/6 other "black belt" kata to work on.  Bunkai would be required for each step of the way.  We cut our belt structure down as well.  Six belts, white to black, stripes to help the instructors gauge, and the student see, where they fall between each.  There is just enough hardened "traditionalist" in me that I feel hesitant to make that last step.  Having a face to face sit down with those instructors who've encouraged me to delve into bunkai and combative side of karate would aleviate that I suppose.  On the philosophical of things I suppose all karateka, if they train long enough, reach the pointt where they have to make a decision.  Do they stay with their base style and follow along that path, or do they branch out and follow a different one which their traning and enternal compas have pointed them to?  Neither is better than the other.  We all know some great practioners who are very dedicated to their style and traditional methods.  And I'd dare say we all know others who have branched out and are out standing karateka as well.  In the end, it's each individuals call as long as it's something they seriously consider and settle on.

Hi MykeB, interesting reply.

Again going back to the kata, really there are no black belt katas as i see it, there are just katas. The whole Dan grade kata scenario is still very much a modern thing, there are katas that seem more simple than others (this is of course how one approaches those katas) and there are katas that are longer and more difficult etc.

The Pinan / Heian katas were made up of ancient kata, from my own research the original name for these were Binan, and from what i can gather at one time, like Naihanchi the Pinan / Heian katas were one long kata, broken down into five parts. Gichin Funakoshi karate manual (to te jitsu) states this, however how true this is no one really knows for sure.

I totally appreciate what you are saying about the Pinan / Heian katas, and ancient kata, a realistic kata system would involve 3 to 5 kata at the most. The masters of old knew only 3 to 5 kata , however they knew those kata inside out and all the bunkai to those katas, so this just shows the importance of kata and the deep study involved.

Sadly with modern practioners its a case of learning a vast amount of kata to earn the belts and compete in competitions, and although this requires a great level of skill, the true meaning of karate has been lost.

Because this seems to be the norm ok karate nowadays, very few dojos, if any teach very little kata, or should i say teach karate how it was original taught. One kata 3 years! unheard of, but why???? Finding dedicated students who would accept this kind of training is very difficult, in Okinawa / Japen not a problem. Westerners need some kind of reward for there hard work, so it seems, a pay rise every few months etc.

Teaching one kata for 3 years to some may sound boring, however, depending on how well experinced the instructor is, he / she should be able to brake that kata down in detail, move by move and develop 2 person drills for the student every 4 to 5 months,(this includes 2 person drills on focus mitts / pads etc) instead of trying to learn a new kata in that time for a nice new belt. The above, and by training this way is without doubt a more realistic approach to kata, still learning something knew, something to work for, but more importantly getting to grips with that kata and following closer into the footsteps of the masters of old.

Kind regards,

Jason

Jason,

Note the quotation marks around black belt when refering to the kata beyond Naihanchi (I know, my first spelling was horrid, blame it on terrible habit and rushed posting this morning!).  From what I understand of previous training Nainhanchi was the base kata pre1920s.  They were a base line of training that appeared to have been almost universal in Okinawan karate.  Kata beyond that would be the "black belt" grouping, those suitable for those who have grasped the basics, ie. Naihanchi.  Passai, Chinto, Rohai, Kanku etc.  Each of them a full set of fighting principles that was self contained without a lot of need of supplimentation.

I also believe, looking at many of the older photos of training in Okinawa pre-1930 show a lot of paired work.  Not saying I've been exposed to the majority of the photos from that eara, though I wish I could be.  It seems the classes were smaller than Japanese/post war karate.  More paired work.  More time with a smaller set of kata, but a deeper grasp of the material.  Driving karate into the public was done by the large classes, the lines of students learning basics and full sets of kata to go out and teach others.  Without that, most of us would not be training today and karate would be an obscure fighting art from a tiny island in the Pacific Ocean.  I think it's popularity and spread of practice would be something along the lines of Silat.  So, yes, large classes and sports focus were an evil perhaps, but one that gave the gift of karate to the world.  Some, I would like to include myself in that mix, look to put the teeth back in karate.  Give it the fighting ability that built it's reputation as a very effective self defense and fighting art.  Evolving the training methods is one way, and a good one to start to do this.  Modern training equipment, with pads, good protective gear and weights go a long way to building strong bodies for karate training.  The other branch of this rebirth/rediscovery is through delving into the kata for bunkai training.  Together they can build a strong basis for self defense training once other elements like awareness, and de-escalation skills are incorporated.

Hi MykeB, i totally agree with what you say.

Firstly Naihanchi kata, (i call this, kata of the masters as they all seemed to know it) is in most styles of karate, some use the name tekki. Myself i use its original name and in our style its one long kata, not broken down into 3 parts. Its vital that we pass on these kata etc for future generations to enjoy, however there are many clubs and instructors out there who are happy to teach a vast amount of kata for the reasons i have said above.

So those katas will be passed on regardless, but sadly the indepth bunkai to those will not, a very basic block and punch combinations, takedowns etc maybe. Its fine to say as an example to teach a basic kata shiozuki / kihon, the five Pinan / Heian katas, a so called brown belt kata and a Dan kata. Theres 8 kata in total, depending on the instructor / experiance etc, and how he / she thinks karate ought to be taught it would to stick to those kata and really go into depth, brake them down so the student has a real understanding of the bunkai and not confused or mislead with belts and gradings.

If one wanted to omit the Pinan / Heian katas and choose 3 to 5 ancient kata to study, teach and brakedown here is a list of 24 ancient kata: however, an instructor must really know their bunkai to those katas etc.

24 ANCIENT KATA (taken from a copy of traditional karate magazine August 1987)

Sanchin: Saifa: Sanseru: Seisan (Hangetsu) Seipai: Seienchin (saipa) Shisochin: Kururunfa: Suparumpi: Naihanchi (Tekki) Kushanku (Kanku) Passai (Bassai) Wanshu (Empi) Wankan (Matsukaze) Ouseishi (Gojushiho) Jion: Jutte: Lorei (Meikyo) Chinte: Chinto (Gankaku) Unsu: Niseishi (Nijushiho) and Sochin

Hope this list is of some interest:

Anyway so one could take 3 to 5 of the above, create a smaller syllabus, maybe omit the coloured belts or just have 3 belts (blue,red black example). Its vital that a instructor follows their own path if they really understand the art of karate-do, having the attitude well i had to learn all these katas so you do is really not good and professional. If you are instructor part of a style association then you pretty much have to do as your told and follow their syllabus, if your not happy or agree with the way things are run then leave and go your own way.

The truth is there really is no right or wrong when it comes to karate or the martial arts in general, however there is to much money and politics within, whatever happened to just training and enjoying. No matter what or how you teach as long as it comes from inside of you its always goin to be right.

I teach traditional karate full time, but what i also do is run a non traditional class for those who have no interest in the traditional side. I created a syllabus, mainly reality focus mitt drills which consists of all the hand / leg techniques of karate, short, explosive and devestating which are not only super fitness drills but great and vital self-defence techniques. So they are still if you like learning karate but with a different approach, there is a market for this kind of class and it works very well. Its worth looking into.

Kind regards,

Jason

Can I please ask, for no reason other than interest, what your grading structure was and what kata were required for grade. The Karate that I did most of was Budokan (essentially Shotokan). Ours was

For 8th Kyu Green - Taikyuku Shodan and Taikyuku Sandan

For 7th Kyu Orange - Heian Shodan

For 6th Kyu Blue - Heian Nidan

For 5th Kyu Purple - Heian Sandan

For 4th Kyu Brown - Heian Yondan

For 3rd Kyu Brown - Heian Godan

For 2nd Kyu Brown - Jion

 For 1st Kyu Brown - Tekki Shodan

 For 1st Dan - Bassai Dai

Beyond this I'm unsure, but it was something like

For Nidan Ho and Nidan - Kanku Dai and Tekki Nidan

For Sandan Ho and Sandan - Kanku Sho, Bassai Sho and Tekki Sandan

For Yondan Ho and Yondan - Empi, Hangetsu, something else

Plus a Nunchaku, Sai and Bo kata in the Dan grades somewhere.

Hi tau, my orginal grading sllyabus was: (this is of course when i were working my way through the ranks etc)

Shiozuki - yellow - 8th kyu

Pinan Nidan - orange - 7th kyu

Pinan Shodan - green - 6th kyu

Pinan Sandan - blue - 5th kyu

Pinan Yondan/Godan - purple - 4th kyu

Jurokono / Matsukaze - brown - 3rd kyu

Jiin / Chinte - brown - 2nd kyu

Saifa / Annanku - brown - 1st kyu

Bassai Dai / Jion - 1st Dan

Shiokosokun / Tomarai no passai - 2nd Dan

Seienchin - 3rd Dan

This is exactly what i did up to 3rd Dan, Naihanchi (the full version) i would have done for 4th Dan, however i was awarded my 4th Dan due to time served and experience etc.

Kind regards,

Jason

Hi all,

For our syllabus I decided to adopt a slightly different approach.

To begin with I reduced the kyu grades to five, yellow belt being 5th kyu. The minimum timescales between grades are greater to allow what I consider deeper study. For that grade there is no requirement to perform a kata, however the student will perform a number of Bunkai from Naihanchi.

For 4th kyu Orange belt the student will then learn Naihanchi.

3rd kyu Green introduces Passai, 2nd kyu Blue Seishan and 1st kyu Chinto.

My syllabus rather goes against the usual process as even though I introduce other forms the Bunkai through the syllabus is from Naihanchi only. My students understand that to study a kata in proper depth takes a number of years, that is if you wish to have the necessary skills to apply your skills in a ''real'' situation. I take the view that learning Bunkai needs to take several stages from learning the application in its simplest form, slowly with compliance to applying the principles under real pressure, through a variety of diferent drills and approaches. So, even on completion of Orange belt the student should have stuff they know works. As the student  progresses their depth of knowledge increases, as does their ability to apply good, solid combative Bunkai.

The other forms area looked at with regards Bunkai and I encourage the students to study for themselves because as they progress they may decide one of the other forms suits their personality better than Naihanchi, there's nothing wrong with that.

I also create pad drills for each of the forms as a support to partner Bunkai practice, I find these work really well.

During the Dan ranks katas Niseishi, Jion, Jitte and Kushanku are introduced. I enjoy (and so do my syudents) practicing other forms, you are allowed to have fun, but of course I do demonstrate and practice Bunkai for these forms too.

So, basically, we look at Bunkai from many forms, we practice Bunkai pad drills from many forms, but, for proper combative application we focus our study on Naihanchi, in a real situation the last thing you want is a dozen solutions to the same problem, so even with Naihanchi we boil down the applications that we need for self protection. The syllabus looks at Naihanchi in great depth, but in combative terms we train a much smaller number of drills.

All the best

Mark

Hello,

Fascinating thread this one, and it's a topic I've been revisiting time and time again for years... just can't seem to get the balance right so for now I have 11 kata. They are the pinans, sanchin, tensho, naihanchi, seishan, kushanku and chinto. I do know one or two others, but these are what I stick with.

My first-grade syllabus mostly consists of punching, kicking, knee strikes and elbows. It looks more like a kickboxing class than karate. It gives everyone a good grounding in the most common situations and techniques, and people get some fitness too. Also it avoids having to teach abstract moves that take ages to learn. They can go home on their first night with something useful.

After that we do a section on basic karate technique and applications - junzuki, gyakuzuki, and the four basic uke waza. After that it's into kata.  I'm in two minds about the pinan forms - I've been doing them for years and the students like them. They are good basic kata, but sometimes I think perhaps I should be doing something else. Most of my own training is around sanchin, tensho and chinto (note that we do sanchin and tensho as soft kata, without the dynamic tension or unnatural breathing).

From an application perspective, well... the more I watch arts like Eskrima, the  more I see in my kata. So the unarmed aspects of Filipino martial arts are an inspiration, along with their training drills, hubud, and so on. I'm a push hands guy anyway, so it fits in nicely with what I'm doing.

On the topic of minimal kata, you could always check out the Kodo Ryu guys headed up by Nathan Johnson... they specialise in only 3 forms  - sanchin, rokoshu (tensho), and naihanchi - although to be fair, their reasons and motivations for training might differ from most people here.

The belts subject is an interesting one. I never graded past shodan, which was back in 1995.  My view is belts are fine for new students learning their art, but are perhaps not so important post-Dan grade.

Phew. I'll stop now!

My experience is unusual, in that about half my time spent having my own small dojo has been with people who already have a blackbelt in something else - either another form of Karate or Jujutsu. Totally different ballgame with those people, and obviously more driven by the individual than be any concern for a formal syllabus, as well as being more of an 'exchange' than a way one street.

With the newer people i 've had, I have never even promoted someone above greenbelt or so..so I have no real idea what the future holds, or what I will settle on.

For now, I basically favor Saifa, Seisan, Seunchin, Gekisai..and almost everything I teach, or have spent time on with my own teacher is from these kata.

I generally start off with posture, stepping, basic understanding of power generation, breathing, and punching via Sanchin kata, then I move on to using the  'x' formation to respond to basic attacks with uke waza..I usually start with slaps and taps to make people less nervous. It seems like once that basic foundation is there we can move to more proactive material starting with Gekisai.

I find that I am now2\ able to fill up a whole class of paired work with maybe two kata techniques, to me this is a good sign, as people seem to be really absorbing principles a bit rather than just learning patterns and moving on.

Sometimes I find formal syllabuses to be more of a hindrance, to the point where what I teach no longer looks like our syllabus (I must remove it from our website!!) Syllabus should reflect training, we shouldn't be slaves to a syllabus for the sake of it.

One problem I have with syllabus karate is its linear approach. "You can't learn this technique until you're a green belt" sort of thing. Why not? Does the green belt contain magical powers enable a student to string together a few techniques?

I'm becoming more convinced that a syllabus is more of a guide to help structure training, not just a list of techniques for passing grades. Why can't students train in whatever they are capable of regardless of the belt they wear?

"Just training" is good for me.

I would Concur Stephen, Kata is taught at the levels they are for a reason, Kata has various techniques etc that when one teaches Kihon etc are taught until later on in the syllabus. For one to understand the kata one needs to build a base to work from and learning the techniques and kata from previous grades etc allows one to "understand the senior grades. In some schools of Wado they state All Kata points to Chinto, Chinto being the last official Kata of Ohtsuka Sensei's Syllabus (I'm not too sure of the correct quote) but its not saying once you learn Chinto you through away the rest its saying that Practicing the "lower" kata give you an undersatnding of the working of this Kata.

Take Ashihara kata, Its nothing like Traditional Kata, Its Jissen Kata so how would every one describe Enshin and Ashihara kata in this aspect?

Thanks

At the very least, practicing the pinan forms are good preparation in the basics ready for the "grown up" kata. As people who have been training 20 or 30+ years it's easy to forget what it's like being a beginner student all over again.  The pinan kata have been a part of my training ever since I switched from TKD to karate, so I'm reluctant to part with them, they are like old friends :-)

Of course I recognise the pinans are of value beyond practicing the basics.  In wado ryu, some of the "optional" kata look very much like 'extra pinans'... Jion for example wouldn't look out of place as Pinan Rokudan!!!

My syllabus concentrates on the nine traditional wado forms plus the sanchin and tensho. I do them because I like them and I haven't yet met anyone who dislikes them. So they stay :-)

And yes, it is right that in wado "all kata point to Chinto".

I wouldn't know where to start on the subject of Ashihara karate! I haven't seen much of it, but  I did buy his Fighting Karate books years ago. I still have them on my shelf.