jujitsu/chin na based katas/forms

rshively wrote:

I'm wondering if any of you have ever tried to practice some of your jujitsu/chin na techniques solo instead of with a training partner.

It’s an interesting idea and one that ultimately comes down to terminology. Often when the words “jujutsu techniques” appear on the web what people actually mean are throws, locks, chokes, etc. Those techniques are not unique to jujutsu though and are found in most systems including karate (see this article for the historical side of things: http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/karate-grappling-did-it-really-exist).

With regards to “Chin-na” we are talking about a subset of locking techniques found within numerous Chinese systems. Some Chinese systems did of course provide the foundations for what became karate and we find many joint locks within karate.

I’ve already made reference to the historical basis for throws and locks within karate in the article above, but here is the classic quote from Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan):

“In karate, hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods, throwing techniques and pressure against joints are included … all these techniques should be studied referring to basic kata” - 1935 “Karate-Do Kyohan” Gichin Funakoshi

For those who have not seen this photo, here is a 1935 picture of Funakoshi (extreme left dressed in black) teaching a shoulder wheel throw and what appears to be striking on the ground. So not just something Funakoshi wrote about but part of his teaching and practise (as it was for all of his generation).

Funakoshi teaching throws and groundwork in 1935

Such methods got lost along the way for many karateka and it was as early as 1938 that Kenwa Mabuni (founder of Shito-Ryu) expressed concern that karate was loosing its grappling, that people were wrong to think that karate was devoid of locking and throwing, and he went on to say that those who did not practise karate in its entirety were learning a hollow version of the art (Karate-Do Nyumon – not to be confused with Funakoshi’s similarly titled book).

The point is that throwing, locking, and choking is a fundamental part of karate and such methods are every bit as much “karate techniques” as they are “Jujutsu techniques” or “Chin-na techniques”.

So in answer to the question “[Have] any of you have ever tried to practice some of your jujitsu/chin na techniques solo instead of with a training partner?” my answer would be “Yes, every single time I perform karate kata”.

Solo training is not the ideal way, or even a good way to improve grappling methods. However, I feel kata works very well as a means to ensure the continuity of information through the generations (i.e. it records karate’s true syllabus) and it can work well when used a supplementary form of training (reinforce motions and concepts best explored through two-person bunkai drills).

As I final quick aside, I know of a few high level sport grapping coaches who breakdown throwing techniques into solo drills to isolate footwork etc as a physical and technical “warm up” before working the same technique with a partner. The resulting solo drill is in effect a “mini kata” and I have made use of such solo drills as part of my practise when training alone. So the answer would again be “yes” even if we were to ignore that locking and throwing are a significant part of karate kata.

Working solo grappling drills is very common and can be useful … so long as it is as a supplement to partner work and live practise. When people consider it a substitute for two-person training we have a major problem!

All the best,

Iain

Nice picture Iain!

It relates well to Bunkai I understand in Chinto kata.

shoshinkanuk wrote:

It relates well to Bunkai I understand in Chinto kata.

That’s a very good observation! If you “remove” the recipients of the techniques you have something that looks very much like the third “simultaneous ude-uke and gedan berai” in back stance (pair on the left) and then the following “gedan juji-uki” with the knee down (pair on the right). Not saying that that is what they are doing, but – now that you point it out to me – I can certainly see a similarity with Chinto / Gankaku. Nice one!

All the best,

Iain

Im sharp like that................................LOL

The 2 simultaneous Ude-Uke and Gedan Uke show the entry/uke/uchi and the lift, you then spin and dump them following them to the floor to hold and strike to finish.

The historical roots of patterns can be very grey as there have been myriads of teachers of martial arts who have never penned their skills or thoughts to paper because of either illiteracy, no desire to do so, or not sufficiently in favour with the powers to be to warrant biographies. We can only discern the thoughts and demonstrations of those in the limelight of now and yesteryears.

Having trained with many instructors whos' skills and ideas would equal or outshine many of the named stars of my day, wether a technique or drill is derived from one source or another only rears its head when we question the sources that are in print or in picture form, there is no substitute for actuality and experimentation.

I trained with a guy once who had never been to a martial arts class nor ever had a teacher or even read a book on martial arts, he had only ever seen a Bruce Lee film. From that film which he bought he trained himself in combat techniques. I encountered him training one day on his own in a squash court practising his moves, I spotted several hyung moves which I had learnt in my formal training of Tang Soo Do. I assuming he was an instructor of some kind out of uniform, I asked what style he was doing? My style he said, we trained for several months together, he was the most naturally gifted fighter I had encountered up to that time, he freed my mind from dogma of teachings and allowed me as Bruce Lee said..." To become like water"

In Moo Duk Kwan there is a saying Ryu Pa [water flows down divided]...No matter what the source water will always take its natural path...sometimes to flourish sometimes to perish.

Yours in Budo 

The issue is for every 'great' self taught martial artist out there, especially based on what you said there would be say 1000 crack pots..................you got lucky that doesn't make the method right.

In fairness I never said if the method was right or wrong, and I have also encountered formally trained "crackpots" as you mentioned. The point I was trying to make was with regards sources of information coming into question as to their origins, when one style resembles another. In combat  a front snap kick for example will look pretty much the same in most styles, so tracing its roots as a technique to a style, and, that styles effectiveness finally comes down to the practitioner, as the technique is only effective as the person doing it makes it or the opponents response to it, no matter where they sourced the technique.

I firmly believe if the first human beings on earth could have written from day one you would find a description of combat techniques of survival, there are probably cave paintings of such things?

Yes fair points, of course the trained crackpots tend to have 2 things going for them -

1. some idea based on the system they learn't (we could certainly say, hey not all systems are great of course)

2. out of 1000 proberly 100 would have something decent to offer (totally subjective of course)

Your comments about the chap included that he was the most naturally gifted fighter you had encountered up until that time, which is great of course - I know alot of naturally gifted people and very few are able to teach others well.

ps I was considered naturally gifted in karate, but really struggle with teaching it - fortunatly my students know this and practice does make things better for us all - significant things have been done as I have a Sensei to keep me on track and help show me the way.

Just talking!

I can't work out if the groundfighting pair on the picture is one guy delivering a finishing blow to a downed opponent or a downed opponent delivering an up-kick to a kneeling aggressor.

I can read it both ways.

Picture was taken at the WASEDA UNIVERSITY dojo and illustrates such teaching was important part of karate at least to FUNAKOSHI.Sadly not to those who came later.

VIC

PASmith wrote:

I can't work out if the groundfighting pair on the picture is one guy delivering a finishing blow to a downed opponent or a downed opponent delivering an up-kick to a kneeling aggressor.

I can read it both ways.

That's well spotted, Chinto kata takes care of that (as we do it) after dumping them down, we follow to ground quickly, our left arm grips the downed opponent by the scruff of the neck and 'lifts' them into a right punch, the lifting of them stops them kicking up as does our body positon, tight to them and towards their upperbody.

PASmith wrote:

I can't work out if the groundfighting pair on the picture is one guy delivering a finishing blow to a downed opponent or a downed opponent delivering an up-kick to a kneeling aggressor.

I can read it both ways.

I guess it could be both? The guy on the top punching and the guy on the bottom fighting back? I guess it’s impossible to be 100% sure what it going from the photo; other than they are on the ground and fighting.

All the best,

Iain

Although, it also looks a bit like an inside-outside block on the shin too. 

Andrew Carr-Locke wrote:

Although, it also looks a bit like an inside-outside block on the shin too. 

Yes or maybe another use for Hikite positon?