Full Contact

Black Tiger wrote:

What are you thoughts on Full Contact Kumite?

In Kyokushin, Enshin and similar styles it's an extremely rare thing in training.  Everyone has to go to work to earn a living, so we train with adequate control and protection, without the need to smash each other up.

Even in Kyokushin Honbu in Japan - where I went expecting battles every session - common sense was used.

So that leaves tournaments and promotion tests.  In our BB tests I ask for contact hard enough to make the candidate want to quit, but not so extreme that they are forced to through injury or knockout.  I'm testing their mettle and their skill, not whether they can soak up punishment on their chest and thighs.

In tournaments we use no pads and the idea - within the rules - is to take the opponent down or knock them out.  That's the only time we 'let it go' but even then caution is used.  Multiple rounds mean minimising injury, so it's not totally wild.  Hard but precise is the way to go.

I prefer this kind of fighting, it's honest and it tests backbone just entering.  It also depends less on the fine judgement of referee's, as scoring techniques are easy for all to to see.  IME the competitors show a lot of respect as well.  If you lose there's pain and bruising - luck rarely decides matches - so you take it in good heart and congratulate your opponent.

Gary

Putting the sporting aspect to oneside, as we don't do that.

I like alot of contact in my karate and as long as we remain relativly injury free then im all for contact - it's the term 'full contact' i have issues with, I replace it with heavy contact usually to keep injuries down.

We do the following contact drills/Kumite -

1. arm, leg, torso conditoning
2. no pads semi contact, point and continuous format
3. full pads, heavy contact, point and continuos format
4. wrestling stand up/floor work heavy contact and continuos
5. fixed Kumites, heavy contact and full armour full contact attacks

Im sure there is more but thats the outline off the top of my head.

Black Tiger wrote:

I know many of the Members follow EKF/EKA/WKF/WKA etc rules in Kumite etc.

How do you know that? I think you are making an incorrect assumption. The nature of this forum tends to attract those with very little interest in competitive karate. In the 7 years that this forum has been running, the overwhelming majority of discussions on sparring have fixated on more holistic and pragmatic forms of sparring (along the general lines described by shoshinkanuk). Even the recent “protective equipment” post shows that the people here are looking to spar in a way totally removed from WKF competitive rules.

I think that’s a totally mistaken assumption and you are not going to find that many people here sparring that way and hence this forum would not be the place to kick off a discussion on the merits and limitations of various forms of competitive sparring.

Black Tiger wrote:

What are you thoughts on Full Contact Kumite.

I think heavy contact sparing has a role to play, but so have lots of other forms of sparring. We need lighter stuff that permits things like elbows and head-butts to the enemy’s head (can’t do those full contact and without protection and expect people to keep their looks and go to work the next day). We need sparring that includes grappling. We need sparring that includes weapons, multiple opponents, people to protect, etc. We also need to include biting, eye gouges, seizing the groin, etc. Again, these can’t be done “full contact” and we need to find safe ways to include them so we can both apply and defend against them.

Each method of sparring brings something to the mix and I think we’d be mistaken to adopt a “one method of sparring is all we need” attitude. Heavy contact can help develop aggression, an appreciation of how chaotic things can get and can help develop that “never give up” attitude. But on it’s own it is still found wanting and does got give us everything we need. There are lots of kinds of sparing and they all help come together to develop the big picture.

I also think, in line with what others have said in this thread, that heavy contact needs to be used sparingly. It’s not the “be all and end all” and other forms of sparring develop certain attributes more effectively. It also needs to be noted that even elite level combative athletes don’t spar full contact all the time. The lessons from it don’t need to be learnt every single session as it takes time for the body to recover. Too much heavy contact can get in the way of progress.

It’s also worth noting that it is not suitable for everyone. The 60 year old who has joined the dojo to learn to protect herself does not need or want some 25 year old smashing her around the head every time she walks through the dojo door. There are benefits for those able and willing to do it, but we should not be failing to help those for whom it is not possible or appropriate. We need to find other ways to develop those attributes as best we can.

Sparring to WKF rules gives you the ability to win tournaments ran to WKF rules. If you don’t compete in those tournaments, then there is absolutely no need to spar that way. Which is why I – and I think I can say with some confidence, the majority here – don’t ever spar that way.

For those who have not seen them, here are some articles I wrote a few years ago on structuring pragmatic sparring:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-1-iain-abernethy

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-2-iain-abernethy

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-3-iain-abernethy

I’ve also done a few podcasts on this issue and here are two on the general principles and some specifics of sparring that I did a couple of years ago:

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-principles

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kata-based-sparring-revisited-structure

I hope they are of interest?

Important topic this one and thanks to Black Tiger for kicking it off.

All the best,

Iain

Not sure if I qualified as 'elite level' even during my competition days (there's only one lonely trophy on my sideboard but it's a good one) but I think as an ex competitor I'll add this:

I think the term Kumite needs defining here.  I read it as a formalised match or bout, not as a free for all or SP training.  There are rules and procedures to be followed, and it gets very painful if you don't prepare properly.  It has limited value in the melee and street scenario's, other than toughening people up a bit.

It's a chicken and egg thing.  People who do well in those types of events are usually cut from the right cloth and as such can go a bit outside.  Exposing the timid to that type of training - straight away - will not make them awesome and able to take on all-comers.  A gradual approach is required, raising the intensity and contact levels as their ability and confidence grows.

This brings us back in a neat circle to the whole nature/nurture debate.  A fierce competitor in a so-called soft style will be far more of a handful than a wuss in a so-called hard style.

Gary

I may be able to answer this better tomorrow night.

I'm entering the BKK's for the first time tomorrow. :)

It'll be my first full-contact event and because we're not part of the BKK I'm in the open section. To be honest it's not something I'd choose to do but is a requirement to get my black belt in Shidokan at some stage so in I go.

I'm under no illusions that I'll do particularly well and I'm trying to remain phylosophical about it. It's part of the journey of martial arts. I've done a fair bit of semi-contact comps. A couple of BJJ ones and a little sub-grappling. This is just another progression really. I'm both a little worried about getting injured and intrigued by the potential to really let rip on someone . :)

I'm not worried about the pain so much but at 37 I don't want to pick anything up that's long term damaging.

Gary Chamberlain wrote:

I think the term Kumite needs defining here. I read it as a formalised match or bout, not as a free for all or SP training.  There are rules and procedures to be followed, and it gets very painful if you don't prepare properly.  It has limited value in the melee and street scenario's, other than toughening people up a bit.

Good point. I read “kumite” as “sparring” … and that means lots of different things to people too! If the question was posed as “What are you thoughts on full contact bouts?” or “What are you thoughts on full contact training for self-protection?” then we would have a more focused discussion. Good thing about this way is that we get a wide ranging discussion and get to cover the similarities and differences between the two.

Gary Chamberlain wrote:

It's a chicken and egg thing.  People who do well in those types of events are usually cut from the right cloth and as such can go a bit outside.  I doubt if exposing the timid to that type of training will make them awesome and able to take on all-comers.

Totally agree. I know a few “tough clubs” that are entirely self-selecting. Machismo runs wild and those who could handle a good tear up before they started training stay at the club; and those that cannot leave. The club then points out how awesome they are because everyone at their club is as tough as old boots and can fight well … what they ignore is that the training they give changed nothing! The have only produced an environment where guys who already “have it” hang out.

I feel we should measure the effectiveness of our training methodologies by what it can do for our weaker members just as much as what it can do for our stronger ones. If a methods fails to help the weaker ones at all (by forcing them out the door on day 1), then it’s not a good method in my view.

We need a procedure that builds people up gradually over time so confidence and ability develop to a level where the student is able to engage in things they would not able been able to previously. It’s that step by step “now you can do that, try this” approach that gets the best results I feel.

Dan Anderson once remarked to me that, “Most people teach sparring in the same way the Romans taught the Christians to deal with lions”. I really liked that and there’s a lot of truth in it.

All the best,

Iain

PS PASmith – All the best for tomorrow!

Iain Abernethy wrote:

I feel we should measure the effectiveness of our training methodologies by what it can do for our weaker members just as much as what it can do for our stronger ones.

That's a good way of expressing it.

PASmith

My advice is 'keep your hands up and keep moving'.  If you've not prepared properly it's going to be a challenge.  I'm not there until about 3:00pm due to prior committments, but I'll bring some grapes just in case 

Gary

Cool. As far as I know there are only 2 Shidokan people entered so if you see one, 50/50 chance it'll be me.

Any of your Enshin guys having a go Gary? I know it'd seriously hamper what Eshin is all about (the entry letter has specific instructions about "no grabbing!") but wondered if they entered anyway?

Anyway..back on topic.

As far as I'm concerned full-contact sparring is a misnomer. For the vast majority it's heavy contact at best. We tend to go heavy in training, heavier again at gradings and then save full contact for comps.

There's a difference between training full conact and training FOR full contact.

PASmith wrote:

Any of your Enshin guys having a go Gary?

Nah -

We have our European Sabaki Challenge at the end of this month in Freiburg.  Training for both - one grabbing, one not - simultaneously is not really sensible.

I wish you luck mate.  It takes courage to have a go.  Many knock this style of fighting then watch from the safety of the seats.

Gary

PASmith wrote:

There's a difference between training full contact and training FOR full contact.

I like it! Pithy and to the point.

All the best,

Iain

I arrived after PASmiths fight so I'll let him write his own report.

It's a hard game.  You need plenty of heart, superb conditioning, ferocity and a tight defence.

In years past I've heard 'traditional' budo-ka dismiss Knockdown and Sabaki rules out of hand as simply rough sports and not real budo.  As there's no face punches many reality-based people have gone out of their way to tell me it will leave people woefully unprepared in real combat.

I just smile.  Sometimes people from those backgrounds enter and the budo-ka are usually completely exhausted after the first minute of 'sport' fighting.  The 'reality' fighters are often knocked out by 'unrealistic' high kicks that they claim will never work for real  ... 

So who knows which way's best and who's got it right?  Each to their own and mutual respect seems the way to go.

Gary

I speak as one who has never taken part in a competition, so only have knowledge as a spectator and in a theoretical sense; having read the rules of kumite. As I see it sport karate has very strict rules and is controlled by a referee, who will stop the fight whenever a point is scored or an infraction occurs. At the other end of the spectrum is the "no-holds barrred" style of sparring, whereby the competitors have very few rules and can include using head butts, elbows, joint locks and grappling. I think we need to have a middle ground which should include some degree of contact and the controlled use of head butts, elbows, joint locks, biting and thence to lead on to grappling and ground work in a continuous fight, unfettered by referees who stop the fight after every scoring technique. This could give a more realistic and pragmatic form of fighting and still make a safe environment for all participants and would not give the wrong impression to potential new club members.

Gary Chamberlain wrote:

In years past I've heard 'traditional' budo-ka dismiss Knockdown and Sabaki rules out of hand as simply rough sports and not real budo.  As there's no face punches many reality-based people have gone out of their way to tell me it will leave people woefully unprepared in real combat …

… So who knows which way's best and who's got it right?  Each to their own and mutual respect seems the way to go.

In the words of Theodore Roosevelt:

“The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood … who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

I think there should be no doubt that knockdown and Sabaki rules present a tough and testing challenge. I also think it would be a huge mistake not to see the abundance of “budo” there.

On a more general point, I don’t feel that any kind of sport fighting has a need to justify itself from a “reality” perspective. Even the more indirect, light and controlled forms of competitive karate are fine in and of themselves. It’s only when people mistake those forms of competition as being totally relevant to self-protection that we have an issue. I really don’t see that any form of competitive karate, taekwondo, freestyle, whatever, needs to justify what they do from a reality perspective. Competition – of all formats – can be fun, enjoyable, challenging and worthwhile in and of themselves.

All the best,

Iain

That's true enough, sport is sport and not real life.

There's no perfect system, but with full-contact/knockdown/sabaki rules you learn the folly of emphasising intricate technical details over fitness, a tight defence and controlled ferocity.  It's often a painful lesson.

Gary

absolute respect to the full contact systems and format of fighting - I did a little about 15 years ago and it's a real tough game for sure.

One of the thigs I have never understood of full contact is why is it okay to kick someone as hard as  possible in the head but not punch them. Is there a reason or is it  a unwriiten rule. No-one as yet has been able to explain it as most have not had any dealings with full contact sparring.

Dave Moore wrote:

One of the thigs I have never understood of full contact is why is it okay to kick someone as hard as  possible in the head but not punch them. Is there a reason or is it  a unwriiten rule. No-one as yet has been able to explain it as most have not had any dealings with full contact sparring.

I've read that the 'no punching to the head' rule is simply to make matches last longer, and that kicks are allowed because they are so diffcult to pull off and are good crowd pleasers, but I could be wrong as I've no personal experience of it.

It's most definately a written rule. 

In the Sabaki Challenge (Illegal techniques)

4.1 Punch, head butt or elbow strike to the neck or face area

Aside from the usual explanation of 'it's illegal and considered prize fighting to strike to the head with the bare fist' it was explained to me years ago that Mas. Oyama (founder of knockdown rules) decided on 'no face punches' as it was too easy to win that way and other skills would therefore be ignored.  Knockdown and associated systems were designed to be a sterner test of character than the 'first one to touch' formats that were popular in some styles at the time.

(Not my words so don't shoot me)

Gary

PS I have considerable experience of this system.

Cheers, that seems sensible and makes more sense than some of the things I have been told, I can only watch and admire the guys going at it full contact. Some of the kicks to the heads are spectacular and I am glad I am not on the receiving end.

Here's a clip so people know what we're talking about:

It's an advert for the Sabaki Challenge, different to Knockdown in that you are allowed to grab and strike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypXQhWGhCkE

Gary

Hi all, 

I started fighting my very first karate lesson at 15 and found out i loved it. I spent all the kyu grades going to point competitions (starting with 1/2 point and 1 point to the modern 1/2/3 point system) It was at my black belt i wanted to hit something,as the karate ones were all about speed, so i went onto semi contact kickboxing then full contact. With one mma bout. As you might guess it was something that i wanted to do, it's not for everyone. 

With that i believe that full contact for the pragmatic karate-ka should be used rarely, and even then wearing full protective gear with certain rules. Certainly it can be used to test mental strength and we all know that hitting someone who doesn't want to be hit is difficult so is a good was of testing striking ability. Like others have said, people get hurt training like this, and any blow to the head can cause problems. I am reminded of several UFC matches i have watched when a low round kick has connected with testicles and down went the fighter. A great shot but we can't be practising that full contact. As Iain has said before, whenever we spar there is always a flaw, light contact drill don't properly prepare has you react from a big hit to the face, full contact has to has rules for safety.

The biggest argument i can give for heavy contact is to give students a snap shot of some of the feeling you may get in a self defence situation ( andrenalin rush, fear, actually being hit) but again it's only the fighting. I believe more time should spend semi live/live drills so went the poo hits the fan you just react.

Standing striking is so natural to  me now but that doesn't mean as soon i think it's going to kick off i'm on my toes guard up. Quite the opposite.

Wow, Excellent responses and excellent comments.

Apologies for presuming everyone or a majority followed WKA WKF etc rules kumite.

It’s mainly because I found that anything that I saw that wasn't Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin and Daido Juku, automatically fell under the WKA, WKF Rules for Kumite.

Yes Iain, as stipulated by Gary, I was more, within my question, akin to Competitions, Senior Kyu and Black Belt Gradings (these as Gary said with a bit of Common sense involved) than Standard Dojo Sparring.

Dojo Sparring was always used with Common Sense, Levels of Contact controlled by the lower grade and/or age, therefore the 60 year old lady would never get "battered" by the 25 year old youth. In one Wado Ryu Dojo I attended for nearly 5 years, I found that when we sparred with the 67 year old Brown Belt Karateka, (God Bless Him, and RIP) he gave a lot of "fight" but everyone in the Dojo respected his age and never retaliated in a "full Contact" manor.

Well Done PASmith for your BKK event. I may see you at Gary's this weekend

I agree that Full/Semi-Contact Continuous, is really good for speed etc when it comes to Dojo Sparring and Comps etc, it builds speed and combinations of techniques.

Kumite, either sparring in the Dojo or for Gradings or Comps give the Karateka the closeness of what it feels like to be in a Jissen situation. We never go out to injure our fellow Karateka "on purpose" because we have full respect for their training and determination too.

The other angle is in my opinion, "Tag" Non Contact or single point and stop WKA/WKF Rules, I am sure others will advise the correct terminology for this , does not give the Karateka the "Feeling" of a Jissen Situation.

Competitions of any level of contact are excellent for a Karateka's career in Martial Arts but we have to go back to what Karate is, I always find that I will slip into one of my kata when sparring as we use Jissen based kata.

I suppose Iain will be able to add links to Kata Based Sparring, but on this topic to what level? I know Daniel-san used Kata to win his final competition in Karate Kid 3.

Also could we use the Traditional and classical kata in the Kumite Competitions of today's Styles?

Black Tiger wrote:

Also could we use the Traditional and classical kata in the Kumite Competitions of today's Styles?

Itosu wrote, “Karate is not intended to be used against a single adversary, but is a means of avoiding injury, by using the hands and feet, if one, by chance, should be confronted by a villain or ruffian.” The karate of Itosu’s day was the karate of the kata. Motobu also said that the techniques of kata have their limits and were never intended to be used against an opponent in an arena or a warrior on a battle, but were most effective against people unfamiliar with the methodology of kata.

Although the past masters sparred and fought with each other, I think it is clear that the focus of their training was not on defeating each other, but on having the skills needed to protect themselves (“avoid injury”) from “villains and ruffians”.

Kata is therefore the skill set for self-protection and would not be directly applicable for “duelling” or a consensual fight; which, despite some crossover, requires different things (i.e. feinting, back and forth footwork, closing the gap, etc, etc.).

As the years have passed, modern karate has added in skills for fighting each other which are not found within kata. However, by trying to use the kata in an environment for which it was not created we have this “bash a square peg into a round hole” thing. The results of this can often be seen in “karateka vs. karateka” “bunkai” demonstrations. Unrealistic and it just does not fit.

So in answer to the question I would say that “no, we cannot” … without serious modification, addition and omission. As always, I like to keep things focused and use kata for the purpose for which it was intended, self-protection methods for self-protection, and fighting skills for fighting.

All the best,

Iain

Personally I think traditional kata moves are unlikely to help in any knockdown/sabaki rules application.

Sure, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, but more complex than that? Nah.

The most effective moves in full-contact are pretty basic, delivered with intent.

Gary

Full-Contact?

Its the difference between hard and soft kinds of training... having an all out match as hard as you can has a place and time. But you can't do it every session. It's simply too hard on the body. For longevity in training and the art, you need to scale it to a point where you can comforably get to work the next day, or play with your kids, or whatever...

Along with this level of regular trainin you also need to change it up with some really light kinds of sessions, as well as really hard sessions (read hard as difficult athletic level, not necessarily contact).

The reasons for this is simple- if you know you are getting into a sparring match where the contact level is very high, or the athletic level is extremely challenging for you, you are only going to play one kind of game, Your 'A-game'. You will rely on what you already do well, and do it harder. Which is good for training that. But if you want to expand your technical knowledge, then you also need the light sessions, where you are free to experiment with different techniques and motions you aren't really good at to see where and how you can fit them in or begin to get better with them. You need to train your 'B-', and 'C-' games too. This way, you can increase the ability of your A-game when the time comes.

-A

´Full contact´?  - the classical dilemma for a´"realistic" self-defense training!

Does your technique work? What technique can you absorb or digest (and continue fighting)?

Important questions! And one has to have an answer to them.

In a normal training you can´t put eyes or throat out, even breaking the knee is not to recommend. You will run out of partners! That´s the problem;) Applied to yourself this kind of full contact will not be appreciated, I think.

So you need rules and/or protection to do full-contact. But by this you can´t do lots of things! It´s a limitation, too!

In karate, respect is important due to the danger of injuries.

Controlled contact is perhaps a reasonable compromise.

Training method: Don´t stop attacking your opponent/aggressor unless he´s unwilling/unable to attack himself!

Friends of mine noticed their broken chin just when breakfasting with their wives the morning after the pub fight, thus it does not suffice to destroy a chin or jaw of a fighter (who had perhaps some glasses of beer to much).

The mental aspect of training is thus very important. You have to know what you do and how it works! But you do not have to cause lethal effects. That´s perhaps the DO.

Regarding training your A B & C game, that always reminds me of the following quote:

Everybody's got plans... until they get hit.
Mike Tyson

Most knockdown/Sabaki Challenge fighters take their well-drilled A game to the mat, coupled with fitness and aggression.  It isn't always neccessary to overcomplicate things, just stick to what works well for you and goes badly for your opponent.

Gary

I have elements of full contact training going on in almost every single class, and all our event simulations are done with contact levels dependant on the experience of the Tori.

However, as has been mentioned here, people have jobs (or even school) to go to!  That's why I use lots of body armour for the contact training.  We're looking to experience pain and winding (and natural movement) when people get hit - we're not looking for injury. That defeats some of the main objectives of training (that is should be designed to prevent injury, that it should make people healthier, and that it should be fun).

JWT

Yeah

We use pads and 'reasonable' contact in training, with '80%' for promotion tests and full contact - no pads in Tournamants.

One thing that is very obvious is that as contact levels increase fighting style changes.  People who are happy to try anything in the dojo often become far more defensive and less attack minded on the mat.

Taken one step further it's no big surprise that a lot of 'touch' martial artists freeze when someone really wants to hurt them, yet the fantasy persists in many areas that their skills will work just fine 'for real'.  This freezing is mental rather than physical, with even the thought of impact being enough to disrupt elaborate skills that work fine in safety.

Gary

Hi Gary,

That's a fair point as to how contact changes things.  I've found in the past that a number of the redundancies in the Heian Flow System are redundant once we make contact as the other person isn't standing any more to receive the follow through hits.

I also agree that the freezing is more mental than physical.  It's not really an adrenaline induced freeze in the majority of cases (in terms of a dump so high it causes the freeze reaction). There is also the 'freeze' you get after the first contact movement in combinations if people are too used to doing a sequence against the air. :)

I had a student get an adrenaline dump just from being told he was the point attacker in a two on one Dan grading full contact self protection scenario.  He knew he was going to take some heavy head shots as a result, and that momentary visualisation caused a hormone cascade.