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Finlay
Finlay's picture
Chokes

What are everybody's feelings on chokes.

i was playing around with my forms and found a possible entrance into a rear naked choke, but are chokes viable or more of a modern sport grappling addition?

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Chokes are certainly effective, although if you try and apply against non compliance expect serious fight back, caused by a panic response. Me personally, I don't use or teach them. In a self defence situation Chokes and strangles are not a great option anyway because those types of techniques, by design require you to remain at the scene longer than you should, also you're vulnerable to attack from accomplices (depending of course on the situation). Chokes are also extremely dangerous to apply, and could have unintentional lasting damage to the recipient. Strangles, whilst certainly dangerous are easier to control in my opinion, and therefore less likely to cause lasting damage. Regards Mark

Tau
Tau's picture

Various views.

At the risk of coming across as pedantic or anal, the first problem I come across in any discussion on chokes in nomenclature. Mark B is clearly using the same language as I do in that he's differenciated chokes from strangles. Not everyone does, however, and this does lead to confusion. That said, in live practice (both from pragmatic and sport perspectives) there's usually an element of both.

Both should be in your toolbox, as should defences against them, even if the risk of you falling victim to them is low in a pragmatic context.

I essentially agree with Mark B's points. I would add that in my experience chokes (AKA "air chokes") are easier to learn and apply in live practice. Strangles (AKA "blood chokes") are harder to learn to use effectively but when learned and practiced are much more effective. Just as one punch can kill, it is not only possible but I know of it happening that a strangle can go wrong with death as a result. The mother of one of my students lost her first son due to this.

Of course context is very important. I've seen bouncers use what appeared to be choking or strangulation techniques but I suspect had some pain compliance e.g. the septum, philtrim or sternocleidmastoid pressure involved. Entering the choke also opens these options up. This may or may not be important to you.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

As mentioned above there is the difference between chokes and strangles if we are being strict (and we should be in this case) with our labelling. Chokes attack the airway and stop the recipient breathing. Strangles attack the arteries of the neck and limit blood reaching the brain. Back in the 1980s – when such methods were still taught to the police – there was a study done where the effects of both were measured. In summary, strangles put people out in 3 to 5 seconds and the distress rating was relatively low. Chokes took around 30 seconds to put people out and the distress rating was high.

So chokes are going to take a very long time to actually incapacitate. In training and combat sports people will tap out when they are on because that’s the sensible thing to do and becasue they are not fun to be on the receiving end of. In reality, as has been pointed out, being tied to one person for 30+ seconds leaves you very vulnerable to third parties and has you staying put when you should be getting out of there.

It’s worth remembering that the “tap out” method was once the training version of chokes. The original idea was that, in actual application, the choke would be applied forcefully and “slammed on” (maybe repeatedly) so that the damage done would be fatal. You apply it, the guy’s throat is crushed, you drop him and leave him to die. Fine on an ancient battlefield, and perhaps also during the time some of our kata were created, but not good for civilians operating in the modern world.

I would still advise practising them though and they do have their uses i.e. ending one-on-one situations were fleeing isn’t an option, protecting others, breaking up fights, etc. They are good for stopping one person striking a loved one, friend or innocent victim: get behind the attacker and put on the choke, this tends to make the recipient reach for the arm across the windpipe, which means the hands are no longer gripping or punching the person you are protecting. You can then pull them backward relatively easily – because they are not holding onto the person you are protecting and the pain of the choke makes them want to move with you – and then move onto whatever you need to do next. No need to wait the full 30 seconds because in this instance we are using the choke as a transitory methods and not a finisher.

Chokes obviously have consensual fighting uses too. All of that said, the main reason I would practise them for self-protection is because we need to be able to defend against them. To do that effectively we need to practise live against people who can competently apply them. If we don’t teach them, then our students won’t be able to effectively apply them … which means that they also can’t meaningfully practise avoiding getting caught in them or escaping from them. We can’t reach true competence in avoiding / escaping any given method if the person applying that method in training is doing so incompetently.

This is particularly important (statistically) for the women we teach because chokes are one of the most common ways in which they are killed. So there’s a strong need to learn to neutralise them for female self-protection, and to do that we need a thorough understanding of how they work (i.e. we need to be good at them). Obviously we can overlook some of the more elaborate and “flamboyant” chokes we see in martial duelling – because the chances of such methods being used in self-protection are remote – but a through grounding in your “common or garden” chokes is definitely needed in my view. And the crime statistics would support that.

Chokes are not going to be primary methods in our self-protection tool kit. But they are still very much worth learning for fighting, historical interest, to stop people attacking others, etc. Above all, from a pure self-protection perspective, I think they are worth learning to “do” so we can effectively and realistically learn to “undo” them.

All the best,

Iain

Michael Rust
Michael Rust's picture

Does anyone have a video showing a Strangle vs Choke ?

Thanks,

Michael

TW Smith
TW Smith's picture

Thats an excellent post Iain. 

I have had the unfortunate experience of having to apply a strangle on a very large man to get him off a lady.

The strangle techniques are extremely effective when applied and real attention getters when u find yourself in one.

I know what we are practicing Wednesday :)

Have a great practice, 

Tim

Tau
Tau's picture

TW Smith wrote:

I have had the unfortunate experience of having to apply a strangle on a very large man to get him off a lady.

I'm guessing you're the TW Smith of Kung Fu Podcast fame. Sifu TW Smith, no less. We exchanged tweets at the weekend. Great podcast. You covered the rear naked choke in an episode recently. Very well done; I think you covered all the points here in advance of this thread and indeed went into more depth!

(Also a shameless plug for you.)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Tau wrote:
I'm guessing you're the TW Smith of Kung Fu Podcast fame ... You covered the rear naked choke in an episode recently. Very well done; I think you covered all the points here in advance of this thread and indeed went into more depth!

I agree. Great podcast! I’ve downloaded that episode, but I’ve not yet had the chance to listen to it (I save them up for long drives!). Here is the link for others (also on iTunes):

http://www.kungfupodcasts.com/archives/man-vs-system-peter-consterndine-kfp-76.html

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

The thread reminded me of this video and news report from last year. Not a good idea to show off your £5,000 Rolex and then willingly turn around to let someone "show you something". Apparently they had been discussing martial arts and the thief ("hugger mugger") offered to show the victim the strangle.

News report here: http://www.itv.com/news/london/2014-05-21/student-passes-out-as-hugger-mugger-grabs-5-000-watch/

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

Michael Rust wrote:

Does anyone have a video showing a Strangle vs Choke ?

I have now! Filmed this evening for you. Very hastily put together. Please note that I show six techniques in this video. I could spend hours teaching each of them to understand all of the fine points and the technical aspects surrounding them. This is a brief overview only, hence it's not publicly viewable on YouTube

Michael Rust
Michael Rust's picture

Sensei Peter thank you very much. Quite thoughtful of you. I remember when we met in the UK at the residential. Hope to see you again.

mike23
mike23's picture

Any strangle can become a choke. A strangle done incorrectly affects the windpipe, and strangles, many times, put some pressure on the windpipe.

Here's a commercial from the Gracie brothers and I'll bet if you slowed it down or paused it, you could seee all 16 chokes and not have to buy into it.