6 posts / 0 new
Last post
SWarner
SWarner's picture
Body contact in Chinto kata

I learned from you that touching your own body in the kata means you are actually hitting your attacker. I do a kata called Chinto (not the same as Gankaku) in which your left arm is raised to the side in a biceps pose and you touch your inner forearm  (lung 6 or pericardium 4) with the finger tips of your right hand, then move your right hand with wrist bent in the opposite direction. Then you slap both shoulders, left then right, before  executing a mountain punch to the side. Pull both arms back and do a high x-block then slap the backs of both hands on the inner thighs before executing a u-punch.

​My teacher has said you are reminding yourself about where these pressure points are. I don't buy this explanation. Do you have any ideas? If the descriptions are not adequate, I can send a short video. Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might have.

Sally

Anf
Anf's picture

When we hit ourselves in forms, are we not just making a satisfying noise?

I say this because when I was first taught pyung ahn sah dan (pretty sure it's exactly the same form as pinnan sah dan in Shotokan), there's a bit where you mimick pulling an opponent's head down to meet your knee strike coming up. I noticed that some in our club where slapping their knee at that point, while I was keeping my hands in such position as I imagined they'd be if I had hold of somebody's head. So I asked about it. I never really got a straight answer. So I looked it up in one of my books. It clearly shows the way I was initially taught, ie no contact and no satisfying noise. The same form, but an older interpretation of it is in another book I have. Gichin Funakoshi's Karate do kyohan. I will see what that one has to say about it.

I know this is an entirely different form to what you're asking about, but I do wonder if hitting ones self is the same as starching your jacket to make good noises as you move.

Edit: I was mistaken. Pyung ahn sah dan as I know it is pretty much pinnan yondan in Japanese terms.

And I looked it up in Funakoshi's book. No slapping ones self there either.

Marc
Marc's picture

SWarner wrote:
I can send a short video.

That would be helpful. Thanks.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Welcome to the forum!

SWarner wrote:
I can send a short video.

That’s would be really helpful. Maybe there is a YouTube video of that version of the form that you could link to? We can then give suggestions. Always fun to do that!

SWarner wrote:
I learned from you that touching your own body in the kata means you are actually hitting your attacker.

I’ve heard others say that, but it’s not something I subscribe too. I think you are confusing me with someone else. It makes no sense to me and there is no historical support for such an idea. The kata aim to instil sound combative habits, and hitting ourselves is hardly a sound combative habit :-)

SWarner wrote:
My teacher has said you are reminding yourself about where these pressure points are. I don't buy this explanation.

I don’t buy that either. The aforementioned “when you touch yourself here, it really means hit the same place on your enemy” is a notion I’ve always seen associated with the extreme end of the pressure point community (same folks who tend to believe in no touch KOs, etc). Again, this makes no sense and it has no historical support.

If you could provide a link to a video I am sure the community here will be able to offer more practical suggestions.

All the best,

Iain

Philios
Philios's picture

Maybe this is what you are referring to?

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/kaisai-no-genri

#7 of the advanced rules (Hosoku Joko) of Kaisai No Genri states:

Touching your own body in kata indicates that you are touching part of your opponent.

In the absence of a partner to practice with, where the kata touches your own body, you would be touching or holding part of the opponent's body.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Philios wrote:
Maybe this is what you are referring to? …

#7 of the advanced rules (Hosoku Joko) of Kaisai No Genri states:

Touching your own body in kata indicates that you are touching part of your opponent.

Great addition to the thread! Well remembered!

That could be were people get the idea from. However, I personally doubt it means “hit your enemy where I’m touching myself”.

My bit of the post you linked to would seem to be relevant:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/comment/11382#comment-11382

Having read that set, I find myself in full agreement with “Hosoku joko - Advanced rules”, with the possible exception of number 7.

7 - Touching your own body in kata indicates that you are touching part of your opponent. In the absence of a partner to practice with, where the kata touches your own body, you would be touching or holding part of the opponent's body.

It’s badly worded. If they mean “when one of your arms is close to your body in the kata, then you are controlling some part of the enemy’s body” then I’d agree with that. As an example, the hiki-te on the side of my body will be pulling on part of the enemy. And if my arm was across my chest it could be pushing the enemy’s arm out of the way (”a crane folding its wings” in the bubishi). So, no problem with that.

However, if what they mean is “when you are touching a specific part of your body in kata then you are attacking the exact same part of your enemy’s body in application” then I disagree. That would effectively mean kata is an exercise in kicking the s##t out of yourself while none on the motions would be applied “as is” i.e. “in the kata we hit ourselves in the crotch, but in reality, you’d be hitting your enemy there.” It’s too pythonesque to be taken seriously.

So it depends on what they mean, and it’s not clear from how it is written.

In the thread it is also suggested that it may be badly translated.

The closer your arms are to your body, the mechanically stronger they are. If you have gripped the enemy’s arm, moving yourself so your gripping hand is beside your body will give you more control over the enemy than if the hand was held away from the body. It therefore makes sense that the hands touching you are also controlling the enemy in some way.  That is more likely to be what it is referring to.

Another illustration would be touching our own elbows when we do elbows in kata. We would be locating the enemy’s head in application, but because there is no enemy there we are touching our own elbow (there is no enemy’s head between the hand and elbow when doing the solo form). If you read that 7th point again with this in mind, it makes more sense:

Touching your own [elbow] in kata indicates that you are touching [the jaw] of your opponent. In the absence of a partner to practice with, where the kata touches your own body, you would be touching or holding part of the opponent's body.

Again, I think there are much more sensible ways to read that than assuming we are pointing to weak areas on ourselves. If your read it the “touch yourself and hit the enemy there” way, then that would mean every elbow in kata is telling us to strike the enemy on the elbow!

The idea that we are mapping out weak areas to strike and grip is not one I find convincing.  Indeed, I’d go as far to say I find it convoluted and ridiculous. Is every hiki-te an instruction to hit your enemy on the side of the ribs!? Is every shuto-uke an instruction to hit them in the solar plexus!?

It would seem to me that the 7th guideline is badly written or badly translated. However, even then, we can read that 7th guideline in way more practical ways if we think it could be referring to either the mechanical advantage of our limbs being close to the body when gripping, and / or the “catching hands” we see on some kata movements.

All the best,

Iain