Bassai dai "bull block" question

Hi Oerjan,

I have a couple of applications here. The first one comes from Karate-do Kyohan by Gichin Funakoshi. He mentions that it can lift the opponents arms in the air so you can then grab the legs and drop them on the ground using the next motions of the kata.  Here is a photo of Funakoshi himself demonstrating the movement in question - http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/fuankohrow.gif/

The takedown mentioned that follows can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfnsvnNMqsQ.

Although I am sure the MMA of today are studying it in a lot more detail (due to its value in the ring) than the Karate practioners needed for self defence purposes.

Another favourite use for this is to strike both sides of the attackers neck at the same time. If you are into Pressure Points, the point I sometimes like to aim for is called dokko. http://pressurepointkarate.com/points/dokko.htm . 

Thanks Leigh, I never really thought of the double arm block that as a takedown, even after seeing Funakoshi picture before ...

In using this as a takedown what does the subsequent punch do? 

It finishes them off! I the kata (form) it can be used to smash the attacker in the groin after the takedown (you have to change the height of the punch obvisouly) 

You could also use the punch as part of the takedown. Its hard to explain in words, you pull one of his legs towards you (your hand on the hip) whilst throwing the other leg away from you (the hand punching).#

Leigh Simms wrote:

It finishes them off! I the kata (form) it can be used to smash the attacker in the groin after the takedown (you have to change the height of the punch obvisouly) 

You could also use the punch as part of the takedown. Its hard to explain in words, you pull one of his legs towards you (your hand on the hip) whilst throwing the other leg away from you (the hand punching).#

Punch to groin I can see that ...as well as your other point.

I was thinking it could be some kind of open handed grab that leads onto something in the turn, but thinking it through that seems like a seperate sequence rather than connected

Leigh Simms wrote:

The first one comes from Karate-do Kyohan by Gichin Funakoshi. He mentions that it can lift the opponents arms in the air so you can then grab the legs and drop them on the ground using the next motions of the kata.

For those who way not be aware, the following photos in the original edition of Karate-Do Kyohan has Funakoshi strike both ribs with Hammer-Fists (as per the kata) before doing the double leg take down. Funakoshi calls this technique “Ude-Wa” (arm-ring) and he is unequivocal when he states “This is an application of moves 22 & 23 of Bassai”. This direct reference to Bassai is missing in the most popular translation of the book (the Kodansha edition).

All the best,

Iain

They are probaly different sequences but I see no harm in using the punch before the turn/throwing motion that comes next :)

Iain Abernethy wrote:

For those who way not be aware, the following photos in the original edition of Karate-Do Kyohan has Funakoshi strike both ribs with Hammer-Fists (as per the kata) before doing the double leg take down.

I've also seen Isshin-Ryu practitioners advocate striking both of the opponent's hip bones with the hammer fists. This apparently has a brief stunning effect on the legs which the karateka can use to advantage.

Harry,

Being an Isshinryu practitioner myself, I've seen that application used to the ribs followed by grabbing the legs and the turning motion is a throw/takedown. (Kusuanku) I've also practiced the punch to the temple, throat, and even a grabbing arm. I've also seen the wind-up used as a blocking action and used for breaking a double wrist grab then striking.

Which ones work and which ones are the traditional applications I leave for you to decide. :) 

Harry Mord wrote:

I've also seen Isshin-Ryu practitioners advocate striking both of the opponent's hip bones with the hammer fists. This apparently has a brief stunning effect on the legs which the karateka can use to advantage.

I like this, though I'd probably use palm strikes rather than punching the hip bones. I think that it would drive the hips back just enough to make sprawling against the shoot difficult. I'm going to have to play with this idea.

Hello! First post in here so please play nice!

I've seen the application of this change fairly recently. For a long time I was taught that it was a block and a double strike to the ribs/kidney areas by a shotokan instructor. Now I've been shown a different application as follows:

The "bull block" isn't actually a block - it is a technique that creates tension on your opponents wrists and elbows. Lets imagine for a second that your opponent has you in a full nelson head lock, pushing your head forwards. This puts pressure on your windpipe making it difficult for you to breathe. Br raising your arms up in that "bull block" position (pushing your own forehead back with the back of your hands) creates tension on the opponents wrists and arms making them loosen their grip and extending your windpipe so you have more breathing space, so to speak.

As the opponent is behind you (with you in a full nelson head lock) the kata shows you that you must step up whilst at the same time, raising your arms into this "bull block" position and pushing your own forehead back. which will alter your oponents angle, pushing them so that they are close to toppling back (thats why the feet come together).

What the kata doesn't show is that you step backwards with the right leg before driving forwards with the "strikes" (formerly double strike to ribs). What is happening here is that you step your leg to the side of the opponent in order to grab their leg and hoist them clean off their feet. Remember that you have just displaced them by backing up into them and you are now grabbing their leg to fling them onto their back using the forward motion with the technique that looks like a double strike.

Note the next move in the kata is a driving through punch with the right fist - this could actually be an ankle snap bearing in mind that you don't draw that right arm back to punch, you just drive it forward from the last double strike. This is because you have still retained the leg from the so-say double strike...when what you have it (hopefully) a foot on the end of that leg...the hands are pretty close together from that "double strike" right? That's because the heel is in left fist grip and the top of foot (toes) are in right fist....drive forward with the right fist still holding the foot and you snap the ankle of your opponent.

This is known as a hyomengi (spelling?) technique - which means that when it is can be used in different applications and it isn't immediately obvious in the kata what its purpose is.

Your thoughts?

karatebarbie wrote:

Hello! First post in here so please play nice! ...

Your thoughts?

Good first post! That’s a very interesting thought about the enemy being behind you. I’ve not seen the motion considered from that perspective before … but now that you point it out I can see some similarities with the motion in Kurarunfa(at around 50 seconds in the video below) which is recorded as anelson escape in the writings of Mabuni and others.

In my own thinking and teaching I divide the bunkai I teach into “primary” and “secondary”. The primary stuff is what I teach first as “the application” based on what I feel is the most pragmatic and has the most evidence to support it. The secondary stuff is what falls into the category of “but the motion could also be used for this too”. To be clear, I’m not saying my primary bunkai should be everyone’s primary bunkai, it’s just how I structure my own teaching. So, for me, the primary bunkai would be the double leg grab that Funakoshi describes. The nelson escape is an interesting possibility for some secondary bunkai. Something for me to think about :-)

All the best,

Iain

Wow. Thanks for all the replies:-) I have been away travelling, but wow did I learn from this. I really liked the picture of Funakoshi showing the application as it shows that it was not really meant to be (insert inlikely block kick punch application here). Thanks. I was wondering though if the movement could also be used as a release technique against a double wrist hold?

Hi all, and welcome Karatebarbie, great 1st post

the bull block as we know has many applications. we use this for example defending from an incoming double grab, grabbing the hair (front and back) trapping the arms behind your attacker as if you were attemping a full nelson, a distraction and many other things.

I will get the camara out and share some ideas soon

Like with any Bunkai application one can take any movement and explore as many possible applications as possible and discard the ones which may not be combat effective.

Hope this has been of some help.

Kind regards,

Jason

Hi,

As well as the tackle advcated by Funakoshi, you can pull the opponent's head forward and underhook both arms, then pull tem towards you so theire head is on contact with your thighs. The straightening in posture helps level them up so their feet leave the floor and you dump them on their head...it sounds complex but it is called 'ox-life drop' which seems to be close to a name you have for your solo move.

Here it is from another kata I am currently working on (medium speed):

The other option is from both wrists being grabbed at close quarters....slide back circle the hands outwards to head height (double head block) as you wtist the wrists in and seize the garment highter then the wrist (the double in block), then lunge forward and shoulder butt the opponent in the chest (front punch) before turning and throwing them (the spinning stamp & hammer fist). Again here is the throw from another kata (medium speed):

Hope it is of help,

Ben
www.irkrs-uk.com
Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo Jutsu
Shidoin
Leeds, UK

Ben, the "Ox life drop" is a belter, ... one of those Ooooh !!! techniques.  Maybe it should be called the "Ox death drop" instead. Brilliant. : )

It was a surprise for Iain (the uke) too, my legendary control resulted in him being dropped on his head but a crate of beer helped sooth the aches n pains!

Hi Ben,

Awesome applications, applied with a bit more energy. I really enjoyed those, thanks.

Here is an application from Okinawan karate, specifically from Kyan Chotoku's lineage: http://toriidojousa.com/photos3.  The attack is a basic grab and pull close.  Note that this technique works best when the opponent pulls you very closely so that he doesn't exceed your reach once you begin executing the technique.  If you use a fair amount of pressure it is not uncommon for the opponent to completely drop to his knees when your knuckles rake the sides of his head.

I know many members of this forum are not big into the whole qi thing but I find that if you want to try to understand the context of a technique from classical karate you need to view the body from through the lens the Okinawans and Chinese viewed the body 200+ years ago.  The classical explanation of this technique, stemming from the Bubishi and traditional Chinese medicine, incorporates a kyusho attack of raking your knuckles across the Gallbladder meridian and striking the Conception vessel.  Specifically, when raking the Gallbladder meridian (shown in the second and third frame) on both sides of the head you attack in an enhancing manner (going with the direction of qi flow) and, among other points on that meridian, you are going after GB3 which is one of the 36 vital points outlined in the Bubishi.

The follow up strike can be delivered to either CV17 (center of chest) or CV22 (Adam's apple), both of which are are also among the 36 vital points found in the Bubishi (although McCarthy's translation lists CV18 I think CV17 is correct from the Alexander/Penland translation due to its significance in TCM as an Alarm point for the Pericardium and an intersection of the Spleen, Small Intestine, and Triple Warmer meridians).

This defense illustrates three examples of kyusho principles by targeting vital or dangerous points, coupling yin/yang with CV being yin and GB being yang, and the enhancement of the GB meridian.