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chao2
chao2's picture
Western Bunkai and Japanese bunkai

Why does Western Bunkai and Japanese(including Okinawan) differs so much ? Western bunkai seems very practical while the Japanese and Okinawan looks very stiff and rigid.  For example,Morio Higaonna's bunkai for Shisochin is very different from Ian's bunkai; Ian's bunkai seems to be more fluid while Morio Higaonna's seems more stiff. Higaonna's attacker attacks as if he is in a kata, while Ian's attacker attacks more realistically. I'm not trying to disrespect Morio Higaonna sensei or anything,but I just wonder how come he isn't showing how these moves would look in a realistic fashion.

 

Tom Hill also had pretty cool applications also for shisochin.

 

When Im looking for new bunkai applications all of the Japanese demonstrations they don't look realistic at all.Their opponents always begins with a lunge punch aimed at the chest( sometimes also to the face, but mostly at the chest) and then the sensei will follow up with a kata move that is performed incorrectly for its context. Do you guys see the differences ?  What do you guys think?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

chao2 wrote:
Why does Western Bunkai and Japanese (including Okinawan) differs so much? …

… When I’m looking for new bunkai applications all of the Japanese demonstrations they don't look realistic at all. Their opponents always begins with a lunge punch aimed at the chest (sometimes also to the face, but mostly at the chest) and then the sensei will follow up with a kata move that is performed incorrectly for its context.

Interesting topic! I don’t think we can make an east / west division as there is good and bad bunkai to be found everywhere. It can seem like it is the westerners are the ones with all the good stuff because we have the HUGE advantage of speaking and writing in English. English is so widely spoken in the west (even as a secondary language) that producing material in English means it will be widely read / viewed. Those from Japan – where English is not widely spoken – will struggle to gain an audience for their material in the west because Japanese is not widely spoken here.

Taira Masaji jumps to mind as a gentleman with very good bunkai and which is certainly not “Lunge punch from 10 feet away”

By way of comparison, here is some western bunkai from recent world championships. Very alethic and hugely impressive in its own way, but far from being practical. I’m sure many here would recognise it as being comparable with how bunkai is practised in many western dojo (the alternative often being no bunkai practise):

I totally agree there is a split between realistic and unrealistic bunkai, but I don’t think we can go “western = good” and “eastern = bad” because that does not hold up to closer examination. There’s good and bad everywhere, but here in the west we are more likely to find other westerners putting forward the good because they write and speak in English.

All the best,

Iain

Gavin J Poffley
Gavin J Poffley's picture

Jut like Iain said above, the more practically minded Japanese guys just don't get the same exposure. 

Another one to watch would be Kuba Yoshio, also a goju stylist.

 

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I'm in agreement with Iain that there is a general "good bunkai" vs. "bad bunkai" situation, but we can't really isolate it to "Western" vs. "Eastern." There are definitely Okinawan/Japanese instructors who teach good material--Taira Sensei probably being the most public about it. I've seen some excellent material from Morinobu Maeshiro Sensei, Iha Seikichi Sensei, Shinjo Kiyohide Sensei, Oyata Seiyu Sensei, and their students, just to name a few. On top of that, I've had good material passed down to me from Nakazato Shugoro Sensei and Nakazato Minoru Sensei of my own style, and Higa Kiyohiko Sensei of the Bugeikan. The trouble is that accessing this information is quite difficult, because they aren't very public about it. That may be an Eastern cultural aspect that could contribute to our perception that the West has more/better bunkai, along with Iain's point about the English language.

chao2
chao2's picture

Taira's bunkai makes the most sense out of most Japanese bunkai I have seen. I have seen pretty bad western bunkai also which makes me cringe with horror. When I saw your bunkai and looked at the Japanese Bunkai,it made me think how come yours look better even though the Japanese invented it. I first thought maybe we in the west aren't performing the correct way or we improved it. But after seeing Taira's bunkai which looks comparable to yours and Tom Hill's it shattered my views. I didn't want to post this question, since I figured people would think I was trying to make a versus thread. Thanks for clearing this question up guys.

How come these Japanese guys don't get any exposure at all? The stuff they do make a whole lot of sense and it is very practical. There should be an annual meeting for practical bunkai where everyone who sees an practical application can pitch in and show a whole new side of  kata. This would be very beneficial for the entire martial arts communitty. Ian have you ever planned a bunkai meeting with Tom Hill or John Burke ? we already have the meeting online already. Im assumed it would be easier to plan these guys since  you guys live in the same country.

chao2
chao2's picture

Another beautiful(but deadly) bunkai from Kuba

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

chao2 wrote:
Taira's bunkai makes the most sense out of most Japanese bunkai I have seen.

I also really like what I’ve see of Taira’s material. It’s close, functional, and his body mechanics and skill in application is lovely to watch.

chao2 wrote:
I didn't want to post this question, since I figured people would think I was trying to make a versus thread. Thanks for clearing this question up guys.

It’s a good question and it’s not he first time it’s been discussed here. It’s perfectly understandable to ask why it seems like western practitioners have something of a monopoly on pragmatic bunkai. It’s good to have the opportunity to give examples and show that it is a perception rather than the true state of affairs.

chao2 wrote:
How come these Japanese guys don't get any exposure at all? The stuff they do make a whole lot of sense and it is very practical.

There are many reasons, but language would be the main one. If you look at the videos Gavin has posted above of Kuba Yoshio you can see they have titles written in Japanese. A western karateka is far more likely to type “bunkai” into YouTube than “分解”so they are therefore less likely come across the good Japanese material.

chao2 wrote:
There should be an annual meeting for practical bunkai where everyone who sees an practical application can pitch in and show a whole new side of kata.

There are meetings and gatherings all the time, but it would be difficult to get something global up and running that everyone would want or be able to attend. Global travel is expensive.

chao2 wrote:
Ian have you ever planned a bunkai meeting with Tom Hill or John Burke? we already have the meeting online already. I’m assumed it would be easier to plan these guys since you guys live in the same country.

I’ve never met Tom or John. I did teach the day after John at an event in Northern Scotland, but he was traveling back as I was traveling up. We had an online chat about that event, but that has been the limit of our contact. We do all live in England, but I spend loads of time out of the UK and have a hectic schedule, as I’m sure Tom and John do too.

There’s loads of bunkai get-togethers though. I’m doing two seminars in the UK this coming weekend and if you look at the “what’s on” section you can see may other such gatherings.

Of course, as it demonstrated by this thread, the internet also provides an effective way for us all to communicate and share ideas.

All the best,

Iain

JWT
JWT's picture

Some very interesting videos on this thread. Thanks for sharing.

As Iain and Noah have said, I don't think this is necessarily an east v west issue in terms of quality of bunkai or depth of insight. The fact that we don't so regularly see 'practical' bunkai on video from oriental karateka does not necessarily mean it does not exist. In the west we benefit from an open culture about our approach to the martial arts and the sharing of information. We have the ability to cross train in and observe a broad range of martial arts. In addition to that there is perhaps so much good material (not necessarily just karate) easily accessible that there is almost a market pressure for people like Iain and myself to share and publicise our approaches in order to attract students to karate rather than one of the other arts out there. John Titchen

Andrzej J
Andrzej J's picture

I'm a little loathe to comment on this thread, since this is still a relatively new field of training to me and I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I don't really see much to criticize about Higaonna Sensei's bunkai (except for that chudan nukite, which would only really be any good for someone who's spent their entire life doing the kind of hand conditioning Higaonna Sensei is known for). But other than that, his parries work, his arm bars work, the takedowns and strikes are entirely credible, the positioning and turns relative to the opponent seem credible, there's one takedown there that looks basically like Funakoshi's 'nodo osae', which we read about here recently, just replacing the throat-grab with a jodan shotei uchi. The only thing you might criticize there is that the stances and techniques are very formal, but then that also makes it a lot easier to see what he's actually doing in the combination. Which seems like a good idea if you're doing an instructional video ... (Furthermore, it's not as if the uke is being required to do anything especially unrealistic. He's coming in and punching, not leaping in with a mawashi kaiten geri. Yes, it's a formal "karate punch", but a brawler's punch would be deflected just as effectively by Higaonna Sensei's techniques.)

On the other hand, watching Taira Masaji's brilliant demo of Gekisai Dai bunkai - well, I had to watch it several times over to recognize the individual techniques of the kata, but it seems like they're all there - and the applications ARE traditional. The movements are smaller, the stances higher and everything flows very quickly together, but a jodan uke is still a jodan uke, all the strikes are still strikes and so on. My argument would be that Higaonna Sensei's demonstration would be aimed at lower level students who are learning the formal kata and want a basic understanding of the individual techniques. Taira Sensei's drill is for those at a much higher level, who already have the basics down.

I'll admit I'm partly stepping up to defend Higaonna Sensei - although I don't train in Goju-Ryu, watching a documentary about him when I was 15 was the reason I chose to start studying karate, rather than any other martial art. But I do still feel there's value in the very clear and comprehensible way he demonstrates the basic bunkai in those videos (of which I've watched many).

Having said all that, one thing I love about Iain's bunkai is that his applications constantly surprise me. What I learned as a series of blocks turns out to be a strike, armbar and takedown ... a "cover" turns into a grab and a turn-and-strike into a throw. I'm sure you could apply similar lateral thinking to come up with some creative new applications for Gekisai, but that's not what we see in Taira's video: instead we see a very fast and efficient delivery of the techniques in the kata, pretty much as they're taught classically.

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

I think a lot of it is the person.  The first time I met Higaonna Sensei, he was terrifying, never smiled, very formal, granted I was young.  Over the years he has also mellowed.  Regardless, what he teaches works.   I think he is just very traditional, also consider who was watching over him in the video you showed, I believe it's An'Ichi Miyagi, can't screw up in front of the boss.

While I've not met Iain, he seems laid back and easy to approach.  He even smiles and tells jokes, regardless that they are not funny.  I think his methodology is just more relaxed.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Pracitcing a agaisnt lunge punch or reverse is a kind of generic way of practicing against a technique where the opponent has an extended arm, and you are on the inside or outside of it etc. You can have the person do a two-handed push for instance in the Hiagonna videos shown and the technique would not change much, other than looking less formal. It's more about working against certain mechanics than it is having a "realistic" attack.

One nice thing about training with people who came up training against (more realistic, closer range) bunkai work against straight punches is that they are used to having their partner actually try to hit them in a dedicated manner. If you start with a whole list of HAPV to start with for you bunkai work, IME newer students often don't learn to practice dedicated attacks in bunkai work, they usually just kind of half-ass it. You can even have them put on gear, and they just sort of fake their attacks.

Why don't some traditional teachers ever show stuff like that in videos? No idea, but demos are demos and generally westerners love to talk, and love to explain. The asian teachers i've trained with have a slightly different flavor to their approach, but I feel it was equally practical, when understood correctly.

Also I want to point out, in my opinion a static wrist grab is a much worse violation of realism than a lunge punch is. A lunge puch (if done at the correct range,with good intent of course) is at leat a human body coming towards you, a static wrist grab really won't teach you anything but how to deal with someone grabbing your wrist in a manner that almost never happens.

Along a similar line, ippon kumite (which is what's shown in Hiagonna vide) is something that serves a pretty specifc purpose in Okinawan Karate as I understand it. The versions I see don't always match with what I learned (such as unrealistic distance etc.), but IMO dismissing the entire practice as unrealistic is missing what is going on, or at least what should be going on with that kind of training.

A valuable comparison is Nage kata/waza in Kodokan Judo, or Jujutsu, the techniques are inititially learned with a fairly unrealistc setup where the kazushi is artificially created, then you move on to more realistic uses..in case of Judo maybe shiai setups, in Jujutsu often more combative uses.

Andrzej J
Andrzej J's picture

This continues to be an interesting thread ...

Zach, regarding your point about a static wrist grab "almost never" happening. It happened to me - a guy harrassing me in a bar who wanted to intimidate me physically. Resolved it with eye-contact and a simple breakhold, and it went no further. I'm fortunate enough to say that's the only time I've ever used a karate technique of any kind in "real life".

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

I don't doubt that it CAN happen. In my Jujutsu cross training lots of techniques are practiced from this position, and I'm sure it's possible that it can occur in a kind of pre-altercation situation.

However, I stand by what I said, it is as unrealistic as lunge punch any day, in terms of self-protection...especially in the context seen in some of thed Tom Hill videos, where he uses Jujutsu type techniques in response to one. These techniques historically come from use against semi-resistant opponents in LEO scenarios, and are IMO a somewhat odd fit for civilian self-defense. Nonetheless, you see them all over. The main point I was trying to make is that the Tom Hill  videos, (not Iain's), did not seem any more practical to me than the Hiagonna ones. 

Ian H
Ian H's picture

For me, a more interesting question is whether the future of bunkai (and of karate in general) will be different in Japan compared to what happens in "the West".

I suspect we are all quite familiar with the history of karate, and the "non-practical" developments of the mid-20th Century in Japan which were disseminated all over the world in the late 20th Century.  Will karate still "look the same all over the world" in fifty years?  Are there cultural differences from one place to another that affect how we learn and interract with our teachers, which will take karate in different directions in different countries?  Are there differences that would lead to different expectations of karate training in different countries?  

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Ian H wrote:
For me, a more interesting question is whether the future of bunkai (and of karate in general) will be different in Japan compared to what happens in "the West".

I suspect we are all quite familiar with the history of karate, and the "non-practical" developments of the mid-20th Century in Japan which were disseminated all over the world in the late 20th Century.  Will karate still "look the same all over the world" in fifty years?

As Funakoshi said, “Times change, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too”. I think we can be sure that karate will continue to change – just as it always has – what will be different is the speed at which those changes happen and spread.

The arrival of the information age has meant that every person with access to a computer can share things globally. Members of this forum can post a video today, and you will have people on the other side of the globe practising the content of that video later in the day. Pre-internet, that dissemination of information would have taken many months if not years as things were passed from person to person.

There will never be wholesale uniformity i.e. all karateka practising karate in the same way. Which is a good thing as the idea of “mono-karate mediocrity” is not an attractive one. Differing training objectives will also ensure variations within karate (sport, arts, self-defence, fitness, etc) just as it always has.

However, I think we will see more common ground within the various subsections of karate because the internet allows the fast sharing and growth of ideas. We will not have, nor should we want, uniformity. But I think we will see more commonality. The better ideas will tend to be embraced by more people and hence will in turn reach even more people.

The internet will also foster more face to face contact between those of a common mind and hence there will be a strengthening of community bonds too.

Geography will play less and less of a role, and we can already see that within the martial arts (along with more mainstream things such as music, fashion, etc). Things spread quickly and we see more commonality.

To me, there has never been a more interesting time to practise martial arts. When I started, the only information you could get outside of the dojo was UK published martial arts magazines (if you could find them) and whatever books you stumbled across in book stores. Today, we are all never more than a few clicks from a huge and every growing “database” of martial information that millions contribute to daily.

All the best,

Iain

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

I was going to say something similar to Iain. 

If you look at the original video's by H. they are old, certainly over 20 years+.  Where as the others have been filmed specifically to be shown on YouTube. "Western" ideas of bunkai practice have massively evolved over the last 10 years. Traditional Japanese methods, I am sure, are changing accordingly.

The "Information Age" has lead to the acceleration of ideas and an associated rapid change in fashion... Something that karate practice is not immune to.

Just as Prussian or western ideas in the 19th century influenced Japanese thinking, so nowadays training methods are demonstrated and showcased on the web and good and bad ideas can influence old ways of doing things.

That being said karate is a physical past time, and as that requires people to train together you will always have local influences.

chao2
chao2's picture

This thread has gotten pretty big so far and only been away for a couple days. Andzrej you make a pretty good point about Higaonna sensei's demonstration,showing moves in that manner would make it easier for lower level students. I don't know Japanese so maybe that was what the video was intended for, but I still would like to see him do it more realistically.I think it would more easier to show the moves to low level students in a more realistic fashion. I don't want confuse them early on

OnlySeisan
OnlySeisan's picture

Zach,

I used to think the wriste grab was stupid as well, until it started happening to me. It actually happened to me last night now that I think about it. It's more of a violence precursor than an actual attack. Someone gets mad and wants to get your attention, they want to show that they mean "business" so they grab your wriste or arm as a show of strength. It can also be a reflex action, your arm just happens to be in reach and the other person wants to dominate you, so they grab it.

You should also look at the domestic violence side of things aswell. To quote Chris Rock "I won't hit a woman, but I'll shake the s**t out of them."

For the sake of brevity, I'm just going to say that it happens and more than you think, especially from non-trained people.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I grew up around a decent amount of this sort of violence, and I never saw it. In addition, the last time I looked at a list of HAPV, wrist grabs didn't show up. I know my subjective experiences aren't exhaustive of course, but if it were as common as that, I believe it'd be easier to find. Anyway, in reference to the rest of my post, it wouldn't matter, evem if training against a static wrist grab is practical for civilian defense, probably going into a wristlock from there is not a particularly practical response for civilians.

JWT
JWT's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I grew up around a decent amount of this sort of violence, and I never saw it. In addition, the last time I looked at a list of HAPV, wrist grabs didn't show up. I know my subjective experiences aren't exhaustive of course, but if it were as common as that, I believe it'd be easier to find. Anyway, in reference to the rest of my post, it wouldn't matter, evem if training against a static wrist grab is practical for civilian defense, probably going into a wristlock from there is not a particularly practical response for civilians.

Hi Zach

Was it a list of HAPV or HAOV? The terms aren't exactly interchangeable. I recently saw an article on HAPV for the first time and realised that it (that particular article) was a long winded over complicated brief on Historical Acts of Physical Violence rather than a more practical (from a training drill and skill development for self defence perspective) Habitual Acts of Violence List. What was the source of the data on the list? Did it distinguish between sexes?

Cheers

John Titchen

swdw
swdw's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I grew up around a decent amount of this sort of violence, and I never saw it. In addition, the last time I looked at a list of HAPV, wrist grabs didn't show up.

Actually , they are quite common against women. They are often a follow up to the initial intimidation attack and then the women are lead away by the upper arm or wrist. As for an initial assault on women look here. #3 on the list of HAOV divided by gender http://www.kitsunekan.com/articles/jeffnashhaov.php

There was a post on here a few years ago where one of the members working as a bouncer saw several fights start by one man grabbing and pinning the wrist of the target against a surface like a table top.

As for another category, I once asked my Sensei about this. he worked as a prison guard for a number of years and taught defensive tactics to LEO's. Besides what I mentioned above, he pointed out that not teaching how to handle a wrist grab to an LEO is gross negligence as the perp wil often try to grab the wrist of the weapon hand to immobilize it. He had numerous cases on the street and in prison to back this up. In addition if an officer places his hand on a pistol to retain it when a criminal goes for it, the crook will almost always try to grab the wrist to pull the hand off.

Problem with most karateka is their view of violence is rather limited in scope and they rarely look outside their own area of experience, so a belief like "no one uses wrist grabs" gets perpetrated and no one bothers to challenge it.

BTW, if you wonder if the opinion of my Sensei is worth listening to, ask Iain, he met him.

Scott McCallum
Scott McCallum's picture

Without intending to derail the route of this threat, one considdeeration that i dont think has been mentioned yet is the social drive that leads many people to explore the pragmatic side of the martial arts.

In japan the fear of crime and the actual crime rates for violent crime are significantly less than those of the US and Britain.  For those exploring an interest in the practical application of Kata may very well adopt a stylised attack presentation because they are not motivated by a need to recreate realistic violence out of concern for use of their art in a 'street/reality' context.

I am not suggesting for a second that there is no fear of crime in Japan, but i am merely suggesting that part of the disparity is the perception that you are much more likely to be the victim of a violent crime in parts of the West than you are in Japan and that this is reflected in the volume of material available in each culture.

Just my tuppence worth

Scott McCallum