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Finlay
Finlay's picture
Would it work

Two ideas about itf tkd

- the patterns above 2nd degree largely lack effective applications

- the fact that  for dan grades 3 patterns are meant to be learnt shows that application isn't important

so

would it make sense to eliminate the forms above 1st dan and base the whole art on the lower patterns but teach them with all the applications. I.e. teach them properly 

just hypothetical ququestion what would we Lose? What would we gain? 

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Finlay,

that totally depends on what your training goals are.

When you want to train for the sake of the art the forms should be preserved and trained.

When your training points towards self protection and self defense it is better to start teaching the forms with proper applications right from the beginning. What is nowadays called an advanced form once was just a form. So depending on who your teacher was back in the old days you just learned his favorite form and method. So there are no advanced Kata in my eyes.

So on the downside when you cut all the forms above 1st Dan you maybe loose another perspective on the whole picture. On the other hand you could concentrate more on the first forms with no one eager to skip the "beginners stuff" trying to advance to the "real deal" way to early.

At the end of the day it all comes down to how that issue is handeled. I prefer to concentrate on the basic forms. Once the foundation is set and the students gained a solid understanding of the principles we can go on studying some of the higher Kata. All the other Kata are optional and at one point in his journey the student decides what his favorite form is or will be that he is willing to study in depth.

Regards Holger

Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

With regards to Korean arts, application is not the main focus, passing grades is all the forms are used for. The Self defence syllabus is the focus, plus ofcourse Olympic teams etc.

Most TaeKwonDo schools focus on Olympic Style Sparring as that's what they think everyone wants to do. With regards to Applying the forms, Its the Japanese arts that have led the way. Koreans especially ITF with General Choi have changed the Korean arts so much to try and create a gap so no comparisons can be found they've created forms without actually understanding what the forms were about etc. they just created the forms as a series of Combinations that encompassed what they'd just learn in their basic techniques for example if they'd just learn Front Kick Round kick and back fist then the Form they have to learn would use those strikes not puting actual self defence techniques into practice.

Now the TaeKwonDo Self Defence syllabus is quite good on par with many arts. it doesn't use the Sine Wave that was concidered as a mistake by many seniors including General Choi but unable to change it back. Should be the main focus of application from now on.

One could create a form by merging all the Self defence technques together to make one form. and practice it that way.

 I think that if one practices Korean Arts, if it is a form that has no origins in Chinese Or Japanese arts then it is just a Korean Dance to pass your next grading.

I think the only Korean art that focuses truly on application is Hapkido, this is an awesome art and has not allowed itself to be influenced by outside characters like the Olympics etc

andrewgjennings
andrewgjennings's picture

Finlay wrote:

Two ideas about itf tkd

- the patterns above 2nd degree largely lack effective applications

- the fact that  for dan grades 3 patterns are meant to be learnt shows that application isn't important

so

would it make sense to eliminate the forms above 1st dan and base the whole art on the lower patterns but teach them with all the applications. I.e. teach them properly 

just hypothetical ququestion what would we Lose? What would we gain? 

Would you kindly source your information?  Why would you think they are largely ineffective?

andrewgjennings
andrewgjennings's picture

Black Tiger wrote:

With regards to Korean arts, application is not the main focus, passing grades is all the forms are used for. The Self defence syllabus is the focus, plus ofcourse Olympic teams etc.

In a well-run school, the forms ARE the self-defense - even in WTF/olympic TKD.

Finlay
Finlay's picture

Hi Andrew,

the he ideas I posted are my personal view of the forms after watching and studying them. They are where I am in my training right now. I say they are ineffective or not focused on application because of the time given to displays of strength and control rather than fighting tactics the slow kicks and other kicking in Juche and Moon Moo would be an example of this. 

Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

andrewgjennings wrote:

Black Tiger wrote:

With regards to Korean arts, application is not the main focus, passing grades is all the forms are used for. The Self defence syllabus is the focus, plus ofcourse Olympic teams etc.

In a well-run school, the forms ARE the self-defense - even in WTF/olympic TKD.

I couldn't agree with you more, there are some really awesome TKD schools who do just as you have described but they are quite rare.