11 posts / 0 new
Last post
stewart
stewart's picture
studying the history of kata empi

hi all i am studying the nature history and performance of empi for my 2nd dan not having much look so far any and all help would be greatly appreastiated 

JWT
JWT's picture

Hi Stewart

Which Karate system are you doing it for?  

There's quite a few threads on Empi bunkai here, but I'm sure members could give you a bit more direction if they knew precisely what you are after.

Mr P
Mr P's picture

Hi Stewart, it's not much to go on but the only stuff I could come up with was from a google search for empi kata history. The shotokan way website has some good notes.

stewart
stewart's picture

cheers and sorry for the late reply as for are club we are largely shotakan but we have lots of influance from othere styles

Kokoro
Kokoro's picture

empi to fly like a swallow, great kata also called wanshu, its old kata, i believe it is from the 1680 or there about. the creator is though to be sappushi wang ji. he was supposable noted for grabbing his opponent throwing them to the ground and then jumping up and landing onto of them. hence the last movement were you jump.

i lve that kata it is one of my favorites

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi all,

Personally I don't subscribe to the idea of this  person Wang Ji being known for throwing an opponent to the ground and jumping on them, firstly because there is  much debate about whether  Sappushi Wang Ji was even the person after which the kata was created and if he was the inspiration for the kata why put his signature move at the end of the form, it doesn't fit with my way of thinking.

As with any kata I see a complete system, a syllabus in and of itself. However, this syllabus doesn't just focus on good form, it actually presents the possibilities for a violent encounter.

Stewart attended my Wanshu open session at which I gave a full explanation of my interperatation from an academic/ theoretical angle. As for the history it really is tough with claim and counter claim, one person trying to prove a finding or discredit  another.

From a grading point of view maybe that might be the way to go, the answer being that there is no definitive historical answer, but I would suggest you might want to also put great emphasis on how YOU view and understand the kata, because in the end that will be the most important thing. As I said at the beginning of my Wanshu session, that was my take on it and you are perfectly within your rights to agree with me 100%, on parts or not at all.

All the best

Mark

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Kokoro wrote:
.....he was supposable noted for grabbing his opponent throwing them to the ground and then jumping up and landing onto of them. hence the last movement were you jump.

Really? i have always taken the view that the final set of moves in Enpi is a throw following a series of controlling techniques, equivalent to a fire-mans lift then a body dump.  

The reason I have never excepted that the jump is a jump is for the same reason/logic I apply for Heian Godan.. The jump respresents a throw and is the only way to represent significant body weight shift in a solo kata (it may not have even intially been a jump, just an expansive movement that has evolved over time to become more athletic in the solo kata form)

Cheers

Tom

CharlieJ
CharlieJ's picture

1. jumping and landing on someone, unless you're bruce lee and your opponent is already out, that sounds like a great way of twisting/breaking an ankle on a rolling target, losing all advantages and just making yourself stupidly vulnerable in teh air.

2. Also re-examining Empi myself and came across a site offering one among many suggestions, that it derived from a sword-kata - and that fits the first move extremely well as I see it.

Tau
Tau's picture

"The dumping kata." I love this kata. Hopefully Iain will chip in soon. Having learned bunkai to it several times from him I could probably regurgitate most of his script but I wouldn't be doing him justice. All I'll add is that the knifehand drill remains one of my favourites.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

CharlieJ wrote:
1. jumping and landing on someone, unless you're bruce lee and your opponent is already out, that sounds like a great way of twisting/breaking an ankle on a rolling target, losing all advantages and just making yourself stupidly vulnerable in teh air.

The way it appears in the kata is a shoulder wheel throw (or one of its variants) followed by – helps to think of it this way – a “jumping stamp” to the downed enemy. It can be done with one-foot landing on the floor as one stamps on the enemy (most common way I’ve seen it done in training because it’s possible to control it; although it’s safer to land to the side). It can also be done with both feet on the enemy; akin to the WW2 combatives “bronco kick”.

My concern with it would not be losing balance as the enemy wriggles – you’ve just slammed them into the floor from shoulder height – although that is potential an issue, but the fact it’s almost certain to lead to very severe injuries and legal consequences. Stamping on the legs works for me though. It is unlikely to lean to severe injury, but it will effectively prevent both standing back up and effective chase. I’d also be happy to jump a little to add to the stamp if appropriate.

Back top the kata, the throw is not one I’d ever consider for self-defence. For me, it’s in the martial arts and fighting categories. I will learn it and practise is for those reasons, but it will never be part of the very small number of methods I will seek to employ when facing criminal violence. The kata’s combination is therefore one I practise for my martial understanding.

If I had put the enemy down with another method, then I am OK with jumping to stamp. I’d avoid the head and body, but the legs are good targets tactically and legally. I’d not be seeking to get “air time” but, if appropriate, getting my full bodyweight dropping onto the stamp will certainly do the trick. The heel of one foot will drive into the enemy’s leg as the other will land on the floor.

CharlieJ wrote:
2. Also re-examining Empi myself and came across a site offering one among many suggestions, that it derived from a sword-kata - and that fits the first move extremely well as I see it.

The internet is full of assertions with nothing to back them up. “Kata X” originally being a weapons kata is a very common trope: “Bassai-Sho is a bo form”, “Sanchin was originally for sai”, etc. There is zero evidence to support these claims though and much that would go against them.

It’s illogical to practise a weapons form without the weapon in your hands. The normal counter to this is, “Yes, but weapons were banned so that had to do them empty handed”, but this is just more historical BS. Firearms were banned, but the Okinawans still practised with other weapons … as it evidenced by the abundance of Kobudo kata we have.

It’s also highly unlikely that a weapons form would be practised without weapons to the point where it was reinterpreted as an empty-handed form, and from there its original purpose was totally forgotten and entirely expunged from the historical record. Such hypothesises require a lot of assumptions for which there is zero evidence. They also require an ignoring of evidence we do have i.e. the weapons ban was not absolute and was mainly aimed at firearms, and we have weapons kata from the same time in which the weapons are in hand. The logical position is therefore that our empty hand kata are empty hand kata. Everything we have confirms that’s the case.

Bottomline, karate has enough problems with its persistent myths, and we are better getting rid of them all than creating new ones.

Unless there is some very strong evidence that has not previously come to light, I would be very happy to reject the hypothesis that Wanshu was a sword kata as entirely baseless.

If you could link to the original article we could look at sources? I did a web search for “Empi as a sword kata” and did find the following:

“The origins of the kata Empi (Flight of the Swallow) are unclear though there are three main theories on how it came into being … Whoever the creator was, it is possible though certainly not universally accepted that Empi is based in part on the sword techniques of Sasaki Kojiro, a samurai warrior who had a particular move that was said to resemble the flight of a swallow, much like the rising punch of the modern Shotokan kata. Kojiro was considered the best swordsman of his day until he was famously defeated and killed in a duel by the legendary samurai Miyamoto Musashi in 1612.”

http://www.historyoffighting.com/the-blog/the-history-of-empi

The “evidence” for this connection seems to be Funakoshi renaming the kata “Empi” in the early 1900s and Sasaki Kojiro having a sword cut by the same name 300 years earlier. That’s extremely tenuous. We also need to keep in mind that “Empi” (Swallow) was not the original name of the kata. The hypothesis is therefore entirely dependant on Funakoshi knowing that the kata was originally a sword kata, despite being done without a sword in hand, which was inspired by a long dead samurai. Funakoshi therefore changed the name to make this connection clear, but never once explained that was his thinking. Far more likely is the fact the swallow, and their mode of flight, had been around for a long time in Japan and hence that was used as a description for two entirely unrelated methods. A common simile is not enough to assert historical connection.

We really have to be careful to avoid such baseless conjecture because it can send us on wild goose chases.

All the best,

Iain

Marc
Marc's picture

As for the jump at the end of the kata: I see jumps as being a certain type of stance. Stances tell us how to shift our body weight to make our techniques more powerful. Zenkutsu-Dachi (forward bending stance) assists pushing kinds of techniques, Kokutsu-Dachi (backward bending stance) assists pulling kinds of techniques. Kiba-Dachi (horse riding stance) may assist downward pressure. And jumps assist upwards pressure.

When you push up with your legs forcefully and have no resistance you effectively jump. But if you have got hold of your opponent's body, you do not jump but lift your opponent. Disconnecting your opponent from the ground enables you to more easily throw them back into the ground.

Here's a judo instruction video that references the concept of lifting several times. The lifting is done with the legs.

 

I think it is easy to see how the movements from Enpi kata resemble Kata-Guruma (shoulder wheel):

 

(Watching this throw always sets me on edge as I always fear the receiver of the throw might land on their head and die. - Please seek expert instruction before ever trying this with a training partner!)

The turn into Shuto-Uke followed by another Shuto-Uke might be follow-up alternatives in case the throw could not be applied as you hoped for. Didn't work? Chop them in the neck from either side!

Of course if you do have successfully dumped your opponent (worst case for them head first) on the ground, you could jump-stomp onto them with one foot, easily (as Iain described), just to make sure they can't chase you.

Just my 2 cents.

Take care,

Marc