Hi everybody,
in Kata Wankan (Shotokan) there is a sequence of three times Mae-Geri landing in Zenkutsu-Dachi with Oi-Zuki (left, right, left). It is preceeded by a right hand Tettsui-Uchi in Kiba-Dachi and followed by a 180° right turn into Yama-Zuki.
I have jumped out of the box and back in, yet I cannot really come up with a convincing, practical application for these triple kick-punch moves.
Can anybody here give a hint?
Thanks Marc
I'm sorry I must have missed something. Are you implying that there is something impractical about kicking an opponent then punching him shortly after? Sometimes a punch is just a punch. Doing something 3 times might just mean it's important and should be practiced.
Yeah..i'd say that is sort of an "what you see is what you get" type thing.
If you utilize different angles with it you can do more with it, but IMO it pretty much speaks for itself.
Looking for complex joint locks, or sequential bit etc. is the wrong direction to go in with something like this IMO, .just get someone to stand in front of you as uke hitting you, gaurding, whatever - then fire away and there's your application.
I can think of a simple but effective one: Just enter with the kick (whatever target is appropriate-( depends on what leg is forward and/or if you are kicking at something else entirely - knees are much more vulnerable at angles obviously!) at an angle, stomp the foot down on the ground or the opponents foot as your "oi zuki" is now something akin to a short overhand, and hit the jaw.
In this video I think Iain explains his take on why things are sometimes in threes in the kata, and why you have the angles. Maybe watch it and see if it's helpful to you?
http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/what-angles-mean-and-why-things-are-threes-video
Thank you for your suggestions.
Of course there's nothing wrong with kicking and punching. Especially a front kick can be effectively utilised to stop somebody who's rushing at you.
Yet, there are a few things that make me wonder whether there might be more to it. The things are:
Good thinking! What if the kick/punch combination is not meant to be used face to face?
For example: If I would stand behind my opponent, then I could kick into the back of his knee. That would make him go down a bit. Thus his head would be positioned nicely for the mid-level punch. The pulling back of my other hand could be used to pull his shoulder back which would twist his shoulder/neck to that side, exposing the side of the head. The head would then be twisted back the other way by the impact of the punch on the side of the head. Pulling back the shoulder would require me to reach out to grab it first. So there's there's even the quick reach forward to grab something.
But: Does the Kata instruct us to get behind the opponent? There is no turn associated with the kick/punch combination. And as far as I understand it, just walking back to the Kata starting point along the Embusen does not suggest standing behind the opponent.
What do you think?
Marc
I actually do a drill where i stand in a natural stance in front of a bag. I use a mae gari, followed up by an oizuki, gyanku zuki just as my foot is landing. My theory is, if i ever do kick (not my first option, but practice it just in case!) it will probably be to hip/groin area, they will probably bend at the wiast whether or not kick connected. That will lower their head/bring it closer, and as foot landing, I use forward momentum to hit their lowered head
I do find that a kick to the Spleen points (10 & 11) inside of the thigh are effective on bringing the head down to 'chudan' level for a follow up punch, utilising hikite for grab and control.
I'm generally 45 degrees to target when doing this - not face on.
FYI - 'spleen' points used simply to reference target area not chi meridians. ;)
Marc: This one has got me thinking..so i'm gonna ramble a bit..sorry if it's too much lol!
On the kicking distance thing, this is true if you utilize mae geri in the 'standard' modern Karate-do manner as a big, gap-closing technique (not a bad thing necessarily), the distance is off. However if you use the front kicking methods you sometimes see in the older Okinawan stuff you can fit in the punch and be at the appropriate distance, if anything you end too close rather than too far!
Offhand the only video with a few examples I can think of to take a look at is Taira sensei's stuff, you can see how he uses the kick at a close range to targets on the the leg, use of quick close knee-spike type applications et
I think as a general rule if it can be avoided, 'face to face' should be avoided. The only reason to not seek a blind spot on someone is if you cannot - such as being on the receiving end and getting caught in between their limbs.
This may be a difference in kata interpretation with many here (I adhere mostly to stuff learned from Kris Wilder, and some of my own craz ideas;)), but I don't think you need turns in kata to imply angles, in other words you shouldn't avoid using body shifting because there is nothing explicity showing it in the kata movement, this would imply that the only places you should think about good positioning are those where you are explicity shown.. this does not make alot of sense to me.
On hikite - it can be an 'application' or grab, it can also mean a hand simply retracting in order to hit again. Hikite is actually a built in part of how you learn to punch in most Okinawan Karate, so there is no need to look for specific meaning behind hikiite in every single instance it appears... If you want an simple example, take a look at any kata with a double punch motion, are we to suppose that the only reasonable interpretation here is one that must involve a grab every single time a hand gets retracted?
I'm sure someone will like to argue with this, but you can even find the words of Motobu talking about hikite, and how intrinsic the use of the retracting hand was to simply learning punching in "old style Karate"..the only difference is that he seemed to dislike the drill which is used in modern days of specifically training it punching from the hips, as well as some of the other modifications that came with modern Karate-do punching. Point being, whether modern exponents think hikite is important outside of grabbing applications or not, I think there is some real evidence that the kata creators sure did, and that it was and is taught in Okinawan karate as part of the punching method, so there is no reason to assume the rule about a retracting hand holding something is an absolute, categorical; thing..sometimes it really is just a punch.
Far as being at chudan level..there are very few places in many kata where punches aren't done at chudan, again if you interpret things that literally and categorically you are bound to come out with some weird results, such as Karate where 75% is chest punches lol. Kata cannot show you every single target, angle, body adjustment of the opponent, .that is part of putting the stuff together on the floor I think.
I really like Jon's answer to this..but I also thhink there is no reason to have restrictive view of "rules" about kata interpretation, I feel like in instances like this having a rigid adherence to them might be avoiding more obvious, effective, and most importantly simple answers.
Thanks for the video, John! I see what you mean. Yes, he could have just as well moved forward to deliver a direct punch to the head. Maybe he didn't because he is mild mannered. :-) Anyway, the distance was right.
Ideally, before you punch, you get hold of your oppenent, so you feel where to hit (as Iain often points out). The gentleman in the video didn't. Maybe that's why he did back off instead of going in.
So maybe that was the clue that I missed when visualising the moves: You do go straight forward, but from an angle that you naturally found yourself to be in.
it seems to me, that the method of grabbing your opponent, kicking to the knee to bring him down, pulling in while delivering a punch to the head, should work well from basically any angle except from the front. The problem with the kick to the front of the knee is that the knee would not give in (when bent).
But the Kata might also give us a solution to the face-to-face situation:
Did you mean something like this:? If you are right in front of your opponent, you could grab his left arm or his neck with your right hand, kick his knee cap with your left foot (Mae-Geri). Then set down your left foot on his right or between his legs and shoot your left arm forward under his right arm (Oi-Zuki) while pulling his grabbed arm or neck close to your body (Hikite) to unbalance him. The Kata then follows with a 180° right turn into Fudo-Dachi with Yama-Zuki. This will throw him over.
Thanks for leading me onto the right path.
Marc
I can definitely see extrapolating a couple other things from ths kata bit..but a front kick with an oi zuki can actually be used as is with little modification, it's pretty bare-bones stuff..in a good way.
I get the objections about hikite and such to some extent, but do you think it's likely the kata creators intended some kind of multi part locking etc. sequence by showing (possibly a gedan uke?) a simple front kick and oi-zuki, and if so, why would they choose to disguise it with these techniques.?
I haven't done Wankan for a long. long time but I thought in the shorin ryu version these techniques were preceded by a gedan uke motion..if that's the case, I could see something like arm press to lower the head, kick it, the follow in with oi zuki on landing..beyond this, and maybe the arm shearing technique someoen mentioned earlier, personally I can't visualize much of anything else you could do with this series of techniques..though i'm very interested to hear anyone who has other ideas.
Hi Marc et al
Although I showed kicks to the inside and outside leg in Heian Flow System I don't generally teach them any more. As Iain put it so well in his most recent podcast, it comes down to context. I mainly do bunkai with a self protection context in mind these days. Against a static/staionary opponent who currently presents no threat to me in a low pressure environment I can pull off knee kicks and kicks to the inside and outside leg. What I find time and time again though is that in self protection training if I have the distance to do this then either
a. there is a better target available (in terms of finishing the fight in a shorter number of techniques) or
b. there is a higher percentage technique available (in terms of a kick to a small precise target like the leg being harder to get right than a torso or head kick (particularly if the head is low)) or
c. the other person is moving towards me at speed with an intent to cause harm and the last thing I want to be focusing on is kicking a moving target like his legs while I'm worrying about his arms or
d. there is no justification for the technique - in other words the other person does not currently pose a threat.
I have no qualms with the usefulness of targetting the legs, in fact they are one of my favourite targets, I'm merely questioning the choice of weapon and context. I knee and nudge the leg all the time.
John Titchen
It sure is, no problem with that.
I'm not implying that there must be something complicated about it, but just some 'feature' I was missing. Look at this video of Iain's for example:
I wouldn't say the joint manipulation is disguised with the Age-Uke/Gyaku-Zuki. It is an integral part of the combination.
In fact, now that I revisited this clip. I can think of another face-to-face application of Mae-Geri/Oi-Zuki:
My opponent grabs my lapel with his right hand. I answer that by grabbing the inside of his right elbow with my right hand (not without slapping his face on the way, of course), then kicking his shin with my left foot (Mae-Geri), pulling his elbow over to my right hip (Hikite), thus creating an angle, and hitting his spinning head with my left fist (Oi-Zuki).
More ideas?
Marc
Personally, i'd just hit him. ;)
Seriously though, seems plausible, have you played with it yet?
I find when I work that kind of arm drop with someone grabbing me, it immediately goes into either an elbow, or some kind of clinchey-thing..not bad, but 90% of the time I am not at distance to punch. I'll mess with this next class, thanks..I now have part of my lesson plan covered heheh.
Yeah, hit him! I mean, first things first, right. As I said, "not without slapping his face on the way, of course". - That, by the way, sounds like a light touch, but have you tried a hard slap on a focus mitt? I mean really hard, with follow through? I wouldn't want my head to be on the receiving end of that.
Not really. Just checked that the mechanics (i.e. creating the angle) would work, today. But didn't have a chance to pressure test it. I guess it should work similarly to the Age-Uke/Gyaku-Zuki thing in Iain's video, though.
Glad to be of any help, lol ;-) Please return to tell us what you will have learned, if you'd like.
Thanks, Marc
There's a good thing to note from John's comment here in that karate or bunkai isn't always about life or death confrontations. Sometimes you need a lock or control that doesn't destroy the other guy. It might just be your drunk Uncle Bert getting a bit too lairy at the family wedding, your talk down has failed, he's thrown a silly punch he's going to regret when he's sober etc.