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colby
colby's picture
Where to start?

Hello all, I have been enjoying all the content on the site so far and want to expand my bunkai knowledge. However, I don't know where to start. I dont know naihanchi or the peinans and I'm okay with that, I have my 8: Wanshu Ananku Seishan Passaic Wanchin Kusanku Gojushiho Chinto Specifically. Now I know the most widely practiced versions of most of those katas are covered in the various DVDs and I also know that Sensei Iain states that these kata versions do the same thing with some stylistic differences thrown in there for flavor. But I look at mine and I look at the katas covered and to my eyes they seem pretty different. Now I know I'm probably wrong on that and I'm just not seeing it. But it also seems like the katas include big differences like my Chinto is done on a 45 angle all the way through. Would that change the bunkai cause all the techniques I'm using are at 45 degree angles to my opponent? Would the kata DVDs be something I should or should not look. Or is there like a master bankia theory DVD that I can start to apply to the katas? Any help would be appreciated as I'm kinda lost right now.

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Colby, I would start with reading Iain's articles on the subject of deciphering kata and "The way of kata" by Kris Wilder. Personally I like to look at the techniques in three ways- strike, throw or lock. Plus angles in relation to attacker. Here's my article what I work with my kata bunkai https://shinaido.wordpress.com/2019/07/12/from-kata-to-fighting/ To be honest you done the biggest step towards bunkai asking question :) Use common sense and pressure testing and you cannot go wrong. Good luck kind regards Les

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Colby,

Welcome aboard!

colby wrote:
I look at mine and I look at the katas covered and to my eyes they seem pretty different. Now I know I'm probably wrong on that and I'm just not seeing it.

My experience is that the style variations are generally not that significant. What they tend to represent are alternative expressions of common principles. I liken it to handwriting styles; you and I could write down the same thing and it would look different, but the message remains the same.

I’d start by getting a handle on these common principles; both combatively and in terms of kata construction. Loads on that here by myself and others, but a good place to start would be the first free e-book you get when subscribing to the newsletter:

https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/join-newsletter-and-get-two-free-e-books

colby wrote:
But it also seems like the katas include big differences like my Chinto is done on a 45 angle all the way through. Would that change the bunkai cause all the techniques I'm using are at 45 degree angles to my opponent?

The angle in the kata does show the angle relative to the enemy; however, when we see that all other versions of Chinto are straight, the logical conclusion would be that the 45 degrees version is done at an angle for other reasons. My guess would be floor space i.e. in a small square room you may not be able to fit the kata in, but if you do from corner to corner you have the space (did this for years in my own small dojo).

colby wrote:
Any help would be appreciated as I'm kinda lost right now.

Don’t rush. There is no need to learn everything overnight. Start by studying bunkai principles and understanding the nature of non-consensual violence. View your kata through those lenses and it will all fall into place over time. Learn slow and steady. Don’t seek an immediate off the shelf “Rosetta stone” for all your kata, but take your time and learn the underlying concepts in-depth.

All the best,

Iain

PASmith
PASmith's picture

There are a few little pointers and questions that I think help in looking at technique and bunkai realistically quite apart from the particulars of any specific technique or sequence...

How close are you? Move in closer than you think. For example a rising block, when done at a foot distance, becomes a forearm smash under the chin rather than a "block" to a descending arm.

What's the non-dominant or non-striking hand doing? The non-obvious hand should probably have something in it, pulling on something, finding something etc.

What are you doing to break posture, balance or structure? If your opponent is well balanced and facing you what can you do to change that situation.

What angle are you at? If something doesn't seem to present itself try moving around the opponent and see things from a different angle.

Keeping those in mind helps keep bunkai in-keeping with the rough proto-style of the original okinawan karate. Close range, grip heavy with lots of breaking posture and structure.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Les and Iain have given you good advice, and I would say that the more you train, experiment, and think about the examples that are out there, the more you will be able to figure out on your own, with time. I would second the suggestion from Les on checking out "The Way of Kata," as it is a very helpful book for those getting started with the idea of practical application--I know it was very beneficial to me, when I started! Iain's book, "Bunkai-Jutsu," is good for that, as well. To add to the article Les wrote, and Iain's newsletter/ebooks, I would offer my own article on the matter:

https://www.karateobsession.com/2016/09/how-to-bunkai.html

And an article from Jesse Enkamp:

https://www.karatebyjesse.com/beginners-guide-to-bunkai/

colby
colby's picture

Awesome. Thanks for all the responses. Should I start with an easy kata or one that I like?

Marc
Marc's picture

Hi Colby,

already lots of good advice above.

colby wrote:
But I look at mine and I look at the katas covered and to my eyes they seem pretty different.

Could you post videos of your kata versions, so we can have a look at how similar/different they are compared to the mainstream?

You can find a few more thoughts on how to do bunkai (the analysis) on my website: https://kata-karate.de/index.php/bunkai-regeln/en

On that page I provide a PDF bunkai checklist that can help develop ideas for applications of a kata sequence. It lists some typical attacks, general karate principles, and quite a bit of specific kata codecs that might or might not apply to your specific kata. The checklist can help you find an application or assess an application you found. Generally, the more boxes you can tick, the more plausible your application appears to be.

https://kata-karate.de/document.php/bunkai-checklist.pdf

The first two pages are the German version, the next two pages are in English. I used a few abbreviations like "ZK" for zenkutsu-dachi, but I hope it could be useful. If you have any questions, don't hesitate do ask.

All the best,

Marc

colby
colby's picture

Sure! No problem.

Wanshu

 

Ananku

 

Seisan

 

Passai

 

Wanchin

 

Kusanku

 

Gojushiho (27 seconds onward)

 

Chinto

 

Marc
Marc's picture

Thanks for posting the videos. My first thoughts:

Wansu: Has a lot of variation but is recognisably the same kata. Last third is missing though.

Ananku: Looks similar to the version if have once been taught. But I'm no expert on this kata.

Seisan: Has many elements similar to Shotokan's Hangetsu, though some of the moves are mirrored, and there's quite a bit of variation. I can see it is the same kata.

Passai: Cerntainly recognisable as the same kata. Maybe some artistic license.

Wanchin: Same Youtube link as Passai (Corrected during embedding – Moderator)

Kusanku: Cerntainly recognisable as the same kata. Maybe some artistic license.

Gojushiho: There are so many variations of this kata. Sometimes the angles seem a bit unusual, but it is definitely the same kata. - Will study this version a little more to gain some more insight into the applications.

Chinto: This is the one with the most variation, as far as I see it. The techniques are expressed differently and the order apears to be mixed up a little. I see a few applications there that I did not realise were there in the version I know best (Shotokan).

All in all I think most of the applications that work for the mainstream versions of the katas will work just as well for the versions you posted. There are some additional moves in your versions, but that just is all the more reason to study the bunkai.

Take care,

Marc

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Marc wrote:
All in all I think most of the applications that work for the mainstream versions of the katas will work just as well for the versions you posted. There are some additional moves in your versions, but that just is all the more reason to study the bunkai.

Totally agree.

Colby – Maybe you could point to one example where you feel the version you practise is markedly different from the more common versions? The community can then give their thoughts on how they would dissect that specific sequence and that example may help you to further explore other differences.

All the best,

Iain

Anf
Anf's picture

I spent quite a few years trying to learn and understand the practical applications of kata/hyung. Not as many years as some do I admit, but still quite a few.

I made some progress.

However I've been making more progress, by accident, since changing style entirely. I've switched to aikido and BJJ. There I see karate in everything we do. Literally everything. When training at 50% speed against an opponent, it's not just the 'technique' in kata that appears, its the footwork and transitions. My training buddies think I'm crazy because I'll suddenly laugh at random moments during practice. It's because I've just recognised the technique we've just been practicing, often complete with setup positioning, is some part of a kata I'd been trying for years to figure out.

Marc
Marc's picture

Anf wrote:
My training buddies think I'm crazy because I'll suddenly laugh at random moments during practice.

LOL, I know the feeling.

colby
colby's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
Maybe you could point to one example where you feel the version you practise is markedly different from the more common versions? The community can then give their thoughts on how they would dissect that specific sequence and that example may help you to further explore

Sure can. So I guess this is a mainstream version of passai, right?

 

Now I get the 1st movement no problem. I see the similarities, no problem. But you get to thennext sequence and I'm lost. It seems like the same.basic structure but for a different application stemming from a different theory of combat. Smae with the searching hand postures which are the low knife hands inthis version. Basic angle and structure seems in line with what I know but what they are doing with it seems different.

Anf
Anf's picture

colby wrote:
Sure can. So I guess this is a mainstream version of passai, right?

is that the 'mainstream' version? It's different to the version I was taught. Same general flow but different in detail.

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Colby

I'm not the best in written explanations, but look at the combination of uchi uke and soto uke as limb manipulation and throws/drags something like this clip below.

 

or

 

all of the stuff where you rise up for me its a throw or pick up, 

 

Hope that will help a bit, I think Wastelander will be most helpful as he is Shorin practisioner.

Kind regards 

Les

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

So, Shorin-Ryu can be a bit difficult to keep straight because it is generally recognized as having four main branches, but it really has 5 because people differ on what they consider to be the 4th branch. There is Kobayashi (founded by Chibana Chosin, which I practice), Shobayashi (founded by Shimabukuro Eizo), and Matsubayashi (founded by Nagamine Shoshin) are pretty much the standard three. Then there is Matsumura Seito (founded by Soken Hohan), which is sometimes lumped in as Shorin-Ryu, and sometimes not. Finally, there is Seibukan (founded by Shimabukuro Zenryo), which is often lumped in with Shobayashi because both Eizo and Zenryo primarily trained with Kyan Chotoku, although they had different influences outside of that. I suspect you will find much more in common with the kata of Shobayashi Shorin-Ryu than with the other branches.

As for your example, you picked Oyadomari Passai and compared it to Itosu Passai, and those ARE different kata--not all Passai are just variants of each other. They have sequences in common, but also significant differences. My friend, Matthew Apsokardu, put together an article exploring the vast iterations of Passai, several years ago, and even it isn't entirely complete; https://www.ikigaiway.com/2014/making-sense-of-passai-an-exploration-of-origin-and-style/

I think it is important to remember, however, that you don't need matching kata to be able to figure out how to apply yours. If somebody's application for Gojushiho fits a movement in your Passai, and it works for you under pressure, then there is no reason it can't be your application for that movement in Passai, if that makes sense. Don't get stuck trying to find applications for your specific kata. Read up on the material we have recommended and, with that information in mind, look at the many different examples that are out there for kata applications--even if you don't practice the kata they come from! In addition, look at other martial arts like Muay Thai/Boran, Jujutsu/Judo, Silat, etc., and consider how the techniques they are doing would like if they didn't have a partner in front of them. Watch some MMA in slow motion and imagine that one fighter is invisible, and see if you can pick out postures from your kata. Over time, you will develop a sense for the types of things a movement/posture can do, based on the guidelines and examples you are familiar with.

If it helps, we have a playlist on YouTube of all of our Waza Wednesday videos over the years, which often cover kata applications--sometimes for kata that aren't even in our system--but again, these are just examples. Our kata don't have to match for you to find useful techniques. The same goes for looking through Iain's examples, or Les's, or anyone else's.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOtJuscqh_GVFSaJTqhPkV8-ELWm-Ymen

PASmith
PASmith's picture

I think it is important to remember, however, that you don't need matching kata to be able to figure out how to apply yours.

This is an important point IMHO. I'm trying to make sense of the ITF Taekwondo patterns (patterns that I acknowledge are flawed from a realistic perspective)  and even I can find common ground with Iain's approach and the karate kata that inspired them.

colby
colby's picture

This helps a lot, thanks so much! And that is an great site I will definitely read more and I totally just subscribed to your channel. And I will definitely remember that as Passai and gojushiho are two of my favorite kata for application. That and anything going on a 45.

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

Colby,

Some very interesting kata variations in this thread, I enjoyed seeing the differences.  Here's a quick suggestion.  You might start with the very beginning of Kusanku (just up to the first shuto-uke).  Maybe check out Iain's bunkai for that motion.  That will give you a tool off the flinch reflex and a general tool for dealing with incoming hands.  (I see shuto-uke is a recurring theme in a lot of these kata, so it seems like a core part of your system.)  You can then start focusing on Passai + Gojushiho.

colby
colby's picture

Thank you! Yeah Shorin-Ryu loves their knife hands and square stances for sure. And that's a great idea, thank you.

Jeb Chiles
Jeb Chiles's picture

I practice Matsubayashi Ryu (Mainly) as well as the Shotokan, Ryukyu/Okinawan Kempo versions of these kata (Wanshu Ananku Seishan Passai Sanchin Kusanku Gojushiho Chinto) Iain's Dvd's have many variations of logical applications, history, context, flows etc... It's really great to have all in one spot! Iain's app is awesome too just not as familliar with it yet!

all the best

jeb