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ky0han
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Itosu Anko still not identified

Hi everyone,

please read this very interesting article http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=7741.

I hope that doesn't come as a shock to some. 

Regards Holger

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Very interesting article :)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Well, that’s a lot of karate books needing revised on their next edition … Wikipedia too :-)

The article gives evidence that the photo is of one “Sango Miyake” (a teacher of swordsmanship) and not Itosu.

All the best,

Iain

Sango Miyake NOT Anko Itosu

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

Very interesting. I suspected this to be the case, as discussed in a previous forum post:

https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/new-pictures-itosu

However, I was convinced that the famous picture was indeed Itosu, until now...

It is surprising how much misinformation and vagueness regarding Karate history there still is.

I wonder what the reason for this is:

1. Is it the language barrier? Shouldn't be overly significant today...

2. Is it the date in which the relevant people lived, which was too long ago to be sufficiently recorded? Doesn't sound logical, as most of these masters lived until the beginning of the 20th century... There are still a few people living today who knew these masters personally and could clarify this kind of mistakes.

3. Is this topic such a small niche which only a very small number of karate nerds find interesting at all, and that's why it is not sufficiently studied and explored? Sadly, I guess this is the case.

It is a shame that there isn't a vast and comprehensive database regarding the lives and relationships between the past masters. I feel that the knowledge is still out there, just not collected, compiled and organized. Other than the work of Hanshi Patrick McCarthy, I am not a aware of any significant English research regarding Karate's history. It is especially saddening seeing how relevant this knowledge is to the modern study of the art.

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hi, For folks to compare, I've put links to photographs archived within the Naha Digital Archives relating to the discussion.

http://www.rekishi-archive.city.naha.okinawa.jp/.../32888

http://www.rekishi-archive.city.naha.okinawa.jp/.../35604  

http://www.rekishi-archive.city.naha.okinawa.jp/.../50620  

http://www.rekishi-archive.city.naha.okinawa.jp/.../14156  

http://www.rekishi-archive.city.naha.okinawa.jp/.../25900  

http://www.rekishi-archive.city.naha.okinawa.jp/.../84235

I find it interesting that several of the photographs are Kendo (gekken) based. Several also contain Narahara Shigeru, Governor of Ry Kyu July 20, 1892 – April 6, 1908. A renowned Satsuma Samurai. I find it interesting given the newspaper article states that Sango Miyake was a Satsuma Samurai who taught Gekken. Yet, there were probably several Satsuma Samurai living in Ryu Kyu 1870s onwards and not all could be mates of Shigeru.

As a bonus and a different subject, here's one that may contain Funakoshi Gichin (no white moustached elderly gentleman)

http://www.rekishi-archive.city.naha.okinawa.jp/.../32886

More research is required. PS: Not Chōmo Hanashiro as there is a 30 year age gap between himself and Itosu. KIndest Regards,

Ally

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Nimrod Nir wrote:
It is surprising how much misinformation and vagueness regarding Karate history there still is.

There are lots of reasons for this, but I think a key one is there just aren’t the records. Nobody thought to write everything down in meticulous detail just in case “this art we practise becomes a worldwide phenomenon in 130 years’ time with everyone wanting to know who trained with who and when.”

Nimrod Nir wrote:
It is a shame that there isn't a vast and comprehensive database regarding the lives and relationships between the past masters.

Aside from the lack of past records, it’s even hard to get that in the modern age when pretty much everything is logged onto global databases daily. In 110 years’ time (the time since Itosu’s death), it will probably be super easy to get photographs of contemporary karateka simply by checking their archived Instagram’s accounts :-) But even with that, it will be hard to determine who trained with who with total accuracy.

I have a “family tree” for my club, and that was really hard to put together. I was forced to simply put my main teachers and their main teachers. It becomes totally unwieldy otherwise. Others, who nevertheless have had a significant influence were omitted. It gets even more difficult when you factor cross-training in other systems in too. You then have the issue of defining what being a student of someone requires. I’ve taught thousands of people via my seminars, but that’s very different from training with me week in, week out at my dojo. And what about the people I’ve train alongside – as opposed to “under” – who I have swapped information with. As bizarre as it may sound, you do get people falsely claiming to be students and teachers of people too! I’ve had people I’ve never even met or talked to dishonestly claim they were former teachers of mine! It’s a complex mess even today.

There are some things we can be certain about. There are some things we can hypothesise over. There are some things we will never know. I think we are best served accepting the limitations of our historical knowledge, being 100% clear with people about what we do and do not know, and avoid the temptation to “fill the gaps” with things we would like to be true (as we often see).

Bottomline, while historical information is interesting and can be useful in contextualising what we do today, none of it – to quote a friend and training partner of mine – “helps us punch any harder.” Karate, therefore, does not lose that much because of its historical ambiguity. It’s nice to have a little mystery too :-)

All the best,

Iain

Anf
Anf's picture

Nimrod Nir wrote:

I wonder what the reason for this is:

1. Is it the language barrier? Shouldn't be overly significant today...

2. Is it the date in which the relevant people lived, which was too long ago to be sufficiently recorded? Doesn't sound logical, as most of these masters lived until the beginning of the 20th century... There are still a few people living today who knew these masters personally and could clarify this kind of mistakes.

3. Is this topic such a small niche which only a very small number of karate nerds find interesting at all, and that's why it is not sufficiently studied and explored? Sadly, I guess this is the case.

I have a 4th idea. Perhaps those old karate masters, and those around them, didn't know or care that they were instrumental in shaping a global phenomenon that would itself influence other later developments. Perhaps they were just enjoying their art and happy to share with others that were interested at the time. Perhaps they and their students had no desire to be deified.

Marc
Marc's picture

AllyWhytock wrote:

http://www.rekishi-archive.city.naha.okinawa.jp/.../14156

There are kanji under that portrait: 氏城干士武朝

Tried a dictionary and google translate, but could not make sense of it. It might be an important title and a familiy name or it could be title only with no name.

The kanji are:

氏 family name; surname; clan

城 castle

干 dry; parch; ebb; recede; interfere; intercede

士 gentleman; scholar; samurai; samurai radical (no. 33)

武朝 Taketomo [possibly a name]

Maybe they form a known expression when combined.

A question to the language experts.

ky0han
ky0han's picture

Hi Marc,

my Japanese is not very good, but one thing I know is that you are trying to figure out what that could mean reading it the wrong direction.

武士 means reads bushi and I guess we all know what is meant by that :)

Hope that helps.

Regards Holger

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

ky0han wrote:
武士 means reads bushi and I guess we all know what is meant by that :)

We can make out "武士 = Bushi (Warrior)” and “氏 = Shi (Mr)”, so it’s a personal name … but due to the multiple pronunciations of Japanese characters I’d not have the first clue beyond that. It looks like “Given-Name ‘Bushi’ Surname."

The article linked above has the “pseudo-Itosu” identified as Miyake Sango / 三宅 三五 (surname first). It’s not that. It’s definitely not 糸洲 安恒 / Itosu Anko either :-)

My uneducated best guess would be:

Mr = 氏 (indicates a name)

Tateki  = Given Name 干城 (https://www.kanshudo.com/searchn?q=%E5%B9%B2%E5%9F%8E)

Bushi = 武士

Asa = Surname 朝 (https://www.kanshudo.com/searchn?q=%E6%9C%9D).

So MAYBE: Tateki “bushi” Asa ... or something else entirely?!

A martial artist, but maybe not one of the ones we are seeking? The photo is not labelled as either Miyake Sango (does look like him though) or Itosu Anko. It does seem that kind of moustache was popular with Japanese gentlemen of a certain age though!

All the best,

Iain