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Shaun1
Shaun1's picture
3K Karate

I have recently seen the video ‘What is 3K karate?’ and it has disturbed me and inspired me enough to write to the forum. In the video you are very polite regarding 3K karate and rightly so as people have a right to choose their activity.

But I have an issue and it is this; I was completely unaware that what I have been doing all along is in fact 3K karate and I would like to propose that 3K is in fact ‘dangerous’ when it is not made absolutely clear that that is what we are doing.

I now realise that it is highly unlikely that I would be able to transfer the skills I have learned to a live situation, I am likely to get hurt! I have spoken to my sensei and it transpires that he is completely and genuinely unaware that there is a different type of karate, he is teaching what he was taught. He truly believes he is teaching self defence. There are black belts in our club who have never made contact with a training partner, the closest they have got is non-contact gloved kumite (Are belts even appropriate for 3K?). And, does 3K actually obfuscate the true study of karate?

Personally, I will be leaving my club because as a higher grade I am supporting and more importantly responsible for our students. I cannot be responsible when I believe what we are doing is dangerous, I cannot send them out into the world believing they can defend themselves when I know it is not true. I am putting them in ‘Danger’!

Once again, I am not saying there is anything wrong with 3k when it is made absolutely clear that that is what is being taught, but when it is not made clear or the club does not even understand the difference, it then becomes dangerous.

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

Shaun,

Great post.  I'll add a few comments. 

For anyone in this position, the first question to ask is whether you are going to cut ties completely and burn bridges.  I agree with you that bad self-protection is dangerous.  It's probably worse than being untrained.  So I think it's legit to say that you've had enough and to walk away from the club.

I went through a period in my life where I completely gave up traditional martial arts for this reason.  I quit practicing kata and did everything I could to distance myself from the 3K-style of karate.  Nowadays, I've decided that it still has a place in my life.  Not a regular place, but I will drop in on local schools for seminars from time to time.  Even though we have major disagreements about self-protection (and about the nature of violence in general), I can live and let live, and I do find some useful material here and there.

One thing I will recommend for anyone in this position is not to give up on your kata practice.  I quit practicing kata for many years and I later came to regret it.  I've since been able to "rebuild" my practice but it would have been better not to lose it in the first place.

It sounds like you already have a plan for how to handle this situation, but I'll throw out a few resources in case someone else is caught in the same circumstances and isn't sure what to do next.  For someone who is looking to move to an entirely new school, here's an article I put together a few months ago on what to look for (http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/how-choose-martial-arts-school).  For someone who is just looking to cross-train in other arts, here is an article on how to do it in a more efficient way (http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/game-plans-cross-training).

Best of luck to you in this.

--J

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Shaun, There is so many black belts around that do 3K karate, as you and Iain said nothing wrong with that. For me karate have many faces, in my club I focus on 3 of them. Practicality techniques must work, art - being practical didn't stop me from training the art and improving sofistication of the techniques and playing with unrealistic ones too. Health - big part of my training is working with body not against. I think that for you would be good to find a club with practical application of karate, but don' be narrow minded. Kind regards Les

Shaun1
Shaun1's picture

Hi J

Thanks for your reply, its great to get feedback and helps to make things clearer. You made me think about all the friends I have made at my club over the years and how I want to help them in any way I can. I might just stay now!! 

Shaun

Shaun1
Shaun1's picture

Hi Les

Again, its so good to get feedback from people who have the same interests but are out there in the world somewhere. I absolutely love doing karate and will never give it up while my body allows me to train, its probably the same for you. The great feedback has made me think that while I will look for another class with more practical methods I will also stay at the club where I have made so many friends and do everything I can to help them with their karate.

Thanks so much

Shaun

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Shaun,

The key is that your training matches your goals. If your goals are to have fun, spend time with your friends, keep healthy, etc then 3K karate can achieve all of those goals. It’s not a good self-protection solution … but that’s also true of the vast majority of martial arts training.

Martial artists generally have a very little comprehension of what self-protection actually involves. What they should do is educate themselves and so they teach something useable and functional. What they actually do is reinvent violent crime in their own image. This is dangerous and irresponsible, but most don’t see that because they are unaware they are doing it. If pragmatic self-protection skills are also one of your goals, then 3K karate won’t meet that need (also true of any health / art approach and any consensual violence / fighting system).

This podcast may help on that side of things:

https://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/reinventing-violence-podcast

Our practise does not need to be exclusively focused on one area though. Self-protection is a life skill and can be likened to first aid i.e. we have a core skill set to be used in an emergency. First aid is not the entirety of medical knowledge though. We get people who specialise in heart surgery, brain surgery, nutrition, fitness training, relaxation / dealing with stress, etc.

To my way of thinking, all martial artists should have the “first aid” of self-protection in place – which should be the same independent of the core art because the problem of crime should define the solution – but they can also specialise in the other areas they find enjoyable and interesting i.e. health, art, culture, sport, etc.

The key is that we don’t mix up the differing training methods and judge each on its own merits. I think this podcast will be particularly useful to you:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/martial-map-free-audio-book

Bottom-line, if you enjoy training at your current club and it is helping you with some of your martial goals, then be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. You also need to look at how you are going to get the self-protection aspect covered now you have identified the current club is not helping on that side of things. It is OK to get different elements from different places.

I hope that all helps.

All the best,

Iain

PASmith
PASmith's picture

I think you can get a good few steps along the path by looking into seminars and sources of good information.

I've been to a couple of Iain's seminars (and will do Keighley this Sunday!) and I try, wherever I can, to incorporate his ideas and ethos into what I do even if the club I train at (a TKD club as ut happens) is not an exact right fit.

In one step (an impractical drill really but there is a degree of freedom to adapt it as your own) I at least try to use bunkai taken from the patterns that I feel follow Iain's methods (to some degree).

When I perform patterns I visualise more realistic applications rather then the flawed TKD ones I've seen or been shown.

When I use my punch bag at home I STILL use Iain's bagwork MP3 from time to time and make my bagwork combative and realistic rather TKD exclusively. I try to cultivate a a good fence, action trigger and pre-emptive strike too.

I try to maintain good pro-active self protection strategies in my daily life.

None of that is as good as training at a club that perfectly matches your goals (we can't all train at Iain's club as much as we may like to) but I think there are ways to make less than optimal training nearer to your goals.

As an assistant instructor I even get to show people some of Iain's stuff from time to time (they all "love" the "will drills"!) although that can be tricky territory depending on the main instructor and how they feel.

Bob Davis
Bob Davis's picture

Hi Shaun, Just chipping in with my experiences have been through a similar loop some time ago.

Even whilst I was still training 3k's exclusively I was aware that it wasn't a practical skill set and had spent some time training around outside in order to fill in the gaps for me. I stuck with it far longer than I should have done because I had many years invested in it, a circle I'd built up over that time and the fact that, despite it's shortcomings, it was just good fun.

What I found whilst I was still part of the group that on the nights I got to teach any of this stuff no one really got it and just wanted to get back to what they knew.

Certainly once I left to persue my current path there wasn't a sudden swell of interest in practcal self protection skills within the group. It's very easy to become quite zealous about educating your fellow students on the error of their ways and assuming that once you've pointed out the obvious flaws in their training that they'll be keen to switch. The truth is probably that 99% won't be in the least bit interested in what you have to say on the topic as they are completely happy doing what they are doing and living with the sanitised version rather than face the realities. Whilst it may be frustrating if they've been made aware and are still not really interested you have to let it go (like I have :-) )

The movement is growing but it's a slow burn.

There are plenty of us out there teaching this sort of stuff now but we are probably still outnumbered 100:1

Rather than trying to build a large group of my own what I tend to have these days is a small core of regular students and am more geared to being the "bit on the side" where people can stick with their "traditional" training and come to me for their practical fix without having to give up everything else they already have. You can have both, or at least you can for long enough to make an informed choice as to which direction to want to take.

Just don't be surprised when everybody else doesn't come with you :-)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

PASmith wrote:
I think you can get a good few steps along the path by looking into seminars and sources of good information …

That’s a great post! Those are some very useful tips for those training within 3K groups in order to maximise the practicality of what they do.

PASmith wrote:
I've been to a couple of Iain's seminars (and will do Keighley this Sunday!)

Awesome! See you on Sunday!

Bob Davis wrote:
It's very easy to become quite zealous about educating your fellow students on the error of their ways and assuming that once you've pointed out the obvious flaws in their training that they'll be keen to switch.

That’s a very important point and something to guard against. It wastes everyone’s time and any “unwanted hard sell” is counterproductive. It puts people off rather than enthuses them. We need to be aware of the goals of other members and accept that their goals don’t have to be in line with our own.

How we approach people is crucial in determining if they will be open to what we have to share. It’s on us as much as them. We can crudely divide those practising 3K karate into four groups:

1) Want to be practical, but are unaware 3K is impractical.

This can be fertile ground when approached correctly. Human nature has it that any well-meaning but forceful cries along the lines of, “You’re all going it wrong! Let me show you the light!” are likely to be met with resistance. However, if you remain objective and stick to sharing facts and strong material, then those facts and material tend to win people over. What we do should be strong enough to convince people of its utility. The aggressive hard sell is unnecessary and likely to be counterproductive.

As people who have been to my seminars will know, when working with a new group, I always start by letting people know that I’m not saying my way is the best way, or the only way, but it’s just my way and I hope they find some of it useful. I encourage critical thinking, let them know its fine to disagree, and state the dissent is a sign of any health group. The following quote from George S. Patton is often the first quote of any seminar:

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

This helps people to open their minds and to look objectively at what I present. I’m not looking for forced conversions or a “dogma battle”. As I say, let the material do the speaking.

2) Want to be practical, are aware of 3K’s shortcomings, but train in 3K for elements is provides that are in line with their goals (kata practise, a good work out, time with good people, etc).

This is very straight forward because we are “singing to the choir”. We just need to help them maximise the efficiency and efficacy of their supplementary practical training.

3) Don’t want to be practical and like 3K for what it is.

These people have found a form of karate that suits their needs. Telling them they are wrong and that they should want something else from their training will have no effect other than make you look like a jerk. These people are to be applauded for not getting confused about context. They are allies in helping other karateka ensure they also get what they want from training. They will be telling people what they do is not practical and is instead all about health, art, enjoyment, etc. As I say, they are our allies. We should not be demanding they do as we do. If we were to do that, then we are as dogmatic and cult like as that which we seek to replace.

4) Don’t want to be truly practical, but think and say they are, are dogmatic in their approach and believe 3K is the only “true” karate.

There is no point in having conversations with the closeminded. They have firm “conclusions” and no amount of evidence (practical or historical) to the contrary will have any effect. They best way to approach this group is to have nothing to do with them and focus on providing the open minded and healthy alternative. This approach to karate is a sinking ship. Groups and individuals who approach karate like this are seeing their students leave them in droves. Conversely, the openminded groups are growing exponentially. They are the authors of their own demise. Better to leave them to it.

Bob Davis wrote:
The movement is growing but it's a slow burn.

That’s not been my experience. On my travels I see interest in practical karate spreading like wildfire. The people I talk to say they are experiencing the same. The practical groups are seeing their memberships swell. Practical karate events are very well attended and frequently sell out. Dogmatic 3K events are less frequent and only get a fraction of the attendance they enjoyed a decade or so ago. Practical karate was a fringe practise when I started writing 20 years ago (albeit a strong one), but thanks to the combined efforts of many people it is now part of the mainstream with many governing bodies and associations across the globe embracing and recognising the practise. The rate of change is also increasing. I think we reached “critical mass” 6 or 7 years ago. Give it another 10 to 15 years and I’m sure practical karate will be more widely practised than 3K. The zeitgeist is unequivocally one of function first.

I’m certain that future historians will look back and see that karate got a little “odd” for a few decades before getting back on track practically. The “3K blip” along with its causes and decline will be in future karate books :-) What will remain will be a small number of anachronistic 3K groups who like the practise (more power to them), while the masses move to a more functional form of karate that matches the demands of the time.

Bob Davis wrote:
There are plenty of us out there teaching this sort of stuff now but we are probably still outnumbered 100:1

No doubt there are still many more 3K practitioners than practical ones at the moment, but we are the ones setting the agenda and future direction of karate. A bus has more passengers than drivers, but no one doubts who has the most influence on the direction of travel. To mix metaphors, the wind is at our back. Demand for information on practical karate is HUGE while interest in 3K karate is waning. We can see this reflected in the size of memberships, the kind of materials being produced, etc. We just need to keep pushing forward. There are so many good people doing good stuff at the moment. In providing the alternative – an attractive, logical and demonstrably functional alternative – we practical types are steering karate away from past dogma.

Bob Davis wrote:
Rather than trying to build a large group of my own what I tend to have these days is a small core of regular students and am more geared to being the "bit on the side" where people can stick with their "traditional" training and come to me for their practical fix without having to give up everything else they already have. You can have both, or at least you can for long enough to make an informed choice as to which direction to want to take.

That’s a really good approach and I see lots of that happening. Where practical groups are not available, people have much success in setting up additional sessions lead by knowledgeable instructors of that bent. Additionally, we also see many practical karate “study groups” being formed. Both of these often grow into fully fledged clubs over time.

As has been mentioned throughout this tread, the key is to ensure training matches objectives. However, you don’t need to get everything from one source.

This podcast from 10 years ago would seem to be relevant to this thread. It contains a bit about trying to change groups from within and the associated opportunities and pitfalls.

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/beginning-bunkai

All the best,

Iain

Shaun1
Shaun1's picture

Hi all, I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their courteous, helpful and truthful replies to an issue that has been bothering me for some time. It has helped enormously and I'm glad I took the plunge to write the initial post. I am better informed for it, and will genuinely change my approach to the issue.

Enormous thanks!

Shaun 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Shaun1 wrote:
I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their courteous, helpful and truthful replies to an issue that has been bothering me for some time …

It’s what we are here for :-) There’s a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people posting and sharing here. I’m pleased you found it useful.

Thank for the initial question! The thread has had over 1500 reads, so it’s sure to have been of use to others too.

All the best,

Iain