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Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture
karate is rubbish and Muay thai is king

Like the tile says i had a dicussion  with a nieghbour who does MT he said he would  not take is kids to a karate class becasue its rubbish for self defence, but good for learning respect and fun etc. I said ok, did not challenge me on that. What do you think, does he have a point? I think in a sense yes but in another way no,. but that  is me lol 

best wishes 

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Mulberry4000

Everything is rubbish if it’s done badly. Muay Thai is great in the ring, not so good for self-defence. 

Unfortunately karate created that image “for kids” but now thanks to people like Iain and others, people starting to see potential of Karate as a self-defence tool.  

Muay Thai have this advantage that is unified, Karate have so many styles and systems that it is impossible to maintain integrity. You will always have valuable people and “rubbish” ones.

Kind regards

Les

Cataphract
Cataphract's picture

Name dropping "Loyoto Machida". :-)

You have to make it work for you and train the way you want to use it. The shortest path to solid no nonsense self defense skills is still boxing in my opinion. But that's just not everyone's cup of tea.

I've sparred and cross trained with MT guys and held my ground quite well, I think. MT is great. It's challenging and fun. But it's no silver bullet.

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

To add what I think is an interesting insight to the Muay Thai versus Karate comparison, I present a link to the blog of Patrick McCarthy Hanshi who put forwards a theory that the percussive impact element of Karate (Ti'gwa) comes from the Muay Thai predecesor called Muay Boran.

http://irkrs.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/siamese-boxing-original-source-of.ht...

For myself I am undecided yet anecdotally when I started training with a boxing coach who also was MT, he remarked how similar my movement & mechanics were to MT. Further still one of my intermediate students now participates in MT with the same coach and finds MT/Karate transforms very easy. I've not made further study on this yet but perhaps an interesting endeavour for the winter months.

Getting back to the "karate is rubbish for self defence". The gentleman would benefit from an introduction to the practical application of karate.

However, sometimes things becomes stuck when "with most people disbelief in a thing is founded on a blind belief in some other thing". Georg C. Lichtenberg

Kindest Regards,

Ally

Dash3
Dash3's picture

It would really matter what karate... I'm sure your neighbor isn't thinking about practical karate, in which case I would probably agree with him - if neither karate nor the Muay Thai class were teaching self-defense, I would give the edge to the MT because at least it's aclimatizing the practitioner to a brand of violence (that is hitting and being hit by a resisting opponent).

If, however, it's a practical karate class that teaches self-defense (and the proper resistance), it would be hard to accept a sport MT class as better.

Anf
Anf's picture

I think too many people, even experienced martial artists, still worry too much about the old which style is best debate. I don't think anyone ever set out to develop a useless martial art. Nobody in history said, wellll, it'll do I suppose. Therefore we must assume that done right, they are all incredibly effective combat systems. It just depends on how it is taught, and how the student trains.

Chris R
Chris R's picture

I think there are some good answers here already, but this is my take on it:

The neighbour does have a point in the sense that an average student from your average muay thai gym is probably a better "fighter" than the average person out of a karate dojo. You won't really learn "self defence" from Muay Thai as it is taught as a sport, though being a good fighter is a form of self defence in of itself. Bear in mind that there is also a risk that you won't learn "self defence" properly from Karate either. However, if you can find a good instructor, then I think that training Karate would be preferrable for learning basic self defence compared to Muay Thai.

However if the neighbour's kid has a general interest in martial arts and might want to fight later on, then Muay Thai is the best choice. If the kid choses Karate now and then decides to fight in the ring later on, he will likely take up Muay Thai anyway. Nobody uses pure Karate in the ring, even the so-called "karate fighers" in MMA cross-train extensively. There are plenty of examples of this ... Lyoto Machida did boxing, trained Muay Thai in Thailand, and was a sumo champion in addition to his Karate. Oliver Enkamp is another "karate guy" in MMA, but he also has a background in K1, professional Muay Thai, Sanshou, and submission grappling. I don't think anyone has used plain Karate for their stand up game and been a successful fighter. If I'm wrong about that please correct me.

With all the above being said, Karate is still a great choice if you can find a good instructor. It will also make the kid a better sport fighter if he decides to take that up in the future. The neighbour won't necessarily go wrong either way (unless he sends his kids to a McDojo), and I definitely think the statement "Karate is rubbish and Muay Thai is king" is a false one.

Dennis Krawec
Dennis Krawec's picture

All comes down to how you train and use what you're taught.

I've trained a little in boxing, and its great for footwork and in fighting. I would surmise that Muay Thai (MT) is much the same, but with the added element of kicking/knees (though having not studied MT I may be missing many things out of ignorance). Boxing and MT will definately teach you how to fight, so if you view self defense/combat only as strike fighting you may have a point; however, both seem largely orientated for fighting in a ring which limits what you train and how you train. Karate also implements throws, holds, and breaking, which can be taken to the point of lethality. Breaking an arm or leg can quickly end a fight or put it it your favour, breaking a neck is game over. Overall there appears to be many more options for self defense/combat strategy in Karate. Though if you have an interest in fighting in the ring, definately take up boxing /MT, and keep studying the infighting (and ground for MMA) aspects in Karate.

This is actually along the lines of an internal debate I'm having; my wife is trying to convice me to join the local WTF TaeKwonDo club ( no local Karate club). I have come to the conlusion that even though there may be some training benefit, I can't.(I have moved the balance of this conversation to its own topic on the forum "Is WTF TaeKwonDo Martial Art or Martial Sport" as not to detract from the current topic, and allow for discussion on its own).

That said I would likely study MT over TKD, as MT appears more actual combat orientated than TKD, and would more readily agree to the statement "TKD is rubbbish, and Muay Thai is King".

DK

Cataphract
Cataphract's picture
Chris R wrote:
Nobody uses pure Karate in the ring, even the so-called "karate fighers" in MMA cross-train extensively.

Nobody does pure Muay Thai in the ring either, except maybe some very traditionally minded fighters in Thailand. If they fight from a back stance they have at least some western boxing influence. If in front stance, there is also some Kyokushin present. Kyokushin on the other hand incorporated some MT.

MT has some very good grappling and throwing from clinch.

Anf
Anf's picture

Dennis Krawec wrote:
Lack of hidden jewels. Again this may be partially out of ignorance of the higher/finer points of TKD, but the forms in TKD seem to require no interpretation of thier use other than the movements presented. Unlike in karate where a block can alternatively be a strike, or throw.

This is largely down to politics and is is such a shame. The Japanese occupied Korea from I think 1903 to just after their surrender at the end of WW2. During the occupation they tried to eradicate every aspect of Korean cultural heritage, including their martial arts. Of course some Korean influence prevailed, but the Japanese styles became dominant. After the occupation ended, Korean styles began to emerge, helped partly by the fact that US military personnel were still stationed in Korea and they worked with the native Koreans to share military skills including unarmed combat. At some point, the Korean government called up the nation's leading martial artists, and asked them to form a new style that would be uniquely Korean and outshine the Japanese styles. Taekwondo was born out of that. Understanding that I think helps us to understand that while many wanted to keep the 'real' skills, the temptation was there to sacrifice that to some extent in favour of the show skills.

Dennis Krawec
Dennis Krawec's picture

Thanks Anf. Though I have since moved my original discussion to its own forum page "Is WTF TaeKwonDo Martial Art or Martial Sport​", but your comments seem to agree to my concern that TKD is more sport than it is martial art.

Cataphract
Cataphract's picture

A Killing Art: The Untold History of TKD is very recommended reading material. Really.

Mark Powell
Mark Powell's picture

My own view is modern Muay Thai is training for a one on one consensual fight with a referee and within the confines of a ring. For the purposes of self defence it is deficient: it teaches none of the essential self defence skills such as awareness, verbal de escalation, coping with multipal opponents, getting up from the floor etc etc. The advantage the average muay thai student has over the average karate student is better conditioning and the fact they are more used to hitting things and getting hit.

AllyWhytock wrote:
 present a link to the blog of Patrick McCarthy Hanshi who put forwards a theory that the percussive impact element of Karate (Ti'gwa) comes from the Muay Thai predecesor called Muay Boran.

While I have a huge respect for Patrick McCarthy Hanshi as a researcher and historian I'm afraid I just don't see it. I spent three years as a youth studying Muay Thai boran and Krabi-Krabong in Thailand and while that has certainly had an influence on my own karate (maybe not for the best) I don't see it in the traditional Okinawan karate.

If anyone has an interest in Muay Thai boran then "The art of Muay Thai Boran" by Master Woody (IBSN: 9789744015655) is an excellent book with good colour photographs throughout although he teaches some movements a little differently to the way my teacher taught them.

https://www.asiabooks.com/art-of-muay-thai-boran-12804.html You'll probably get a "security alert"  because asia books don't pay for web certificates. laugh

Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture

hi i read the article  while intrresting he do not go explain the point, what and how Mauy Boran came to influne karate, He does make anedotal points about traders, but that is it. 

Intresting but not convinced

best wishes

Chris R
Chris R's picture

Cataphract wrote:
Chris R wrote:
Nobody uses pure Karate in the ring, even the so-called "karate fighers" in MMA cross-train extensively.

Nobody does pure Muay Thai in the ring either, except maybe some very traditionally minded fighters in Thailand. If they fight from a back stance they have at least some western boxing influence. If in front stance, there is also some Kyokushin present. Kyokushin on the other hand incorporated some MT.

MT has some very good grappling and throwing from clinch.

Guess it depends what you mean by "pure." What I was meaning to say was that you can be successful in the ring if you train only in Muay Thai (as in you purely use what you learned in a Muay Thai gym), while if you train Karate you will have to cross-train to be successful in the ring. Obviously this is assuming the rules do not allow full-on grappling; I'm referring to Muay Thai or Kickboxing style rules. I understand what you mean about most people (particularly in the western world) not doing what is necessarily "pure Muay Thai" though, and this sounds like an interesting topic to look into.