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tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture
Opening of new Dojo / school

Hi,

I wanted to ask the Dojo owners of this group a question or few.

What made you open up your own Dojo? Did you leave the Association you were with to go it alone? Was it a natural progression in your club / assoication? Did you feel that you were not getting thing of value where you were so it was best to start your own club and take your teaching in the direction wanted to go?

As you can see / tell, I think I am at a crossroads - yet again - in regards to my own training and knowledge and looking for advice here, I think - is much more suitable.

Thanks for your advice / insight :)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

In my case I went my own way because what I was practising and teaching was now markedly different from the group I started with. We talked openly and I left with the full blessing of the group and my teacher. I’m still friendly with all of them, we talk regularly, and I occasionally do some teaching for them.

I had numerous influences from outside the group (something that was supported and encouraged) and I had my own thoughts and ideas (which was again encouraged). This naturally lead to a divergence.

To me, it was a little like I’d grown up and it was time to leave home. That was not because of any failing from the group or my teacher. Quite the opposite! It was because they had raised me right. I’ve been very lucky in that way.

I’ve tried to follow that example and have a syllabus which will eventually lead to the student doing “their karate” and not mine. Iain-ryu will never exist :-)

It’s good to be part of a group that can offer support and good training, but there also comes a point where people need to take ownership of their own path. You still need people to train under and offer guidance because being completely alone often results in stagnation. However, this can be on a more “informal” basis and in a way that still permits you to decide the overall direction of travel.

All the best.

Iain

Elmar
Elmar's picture

In my case, it was the combination of the upheavals/schisms in the shotokan world that made me leave my organization and join ISOK.  So in a sense I've been long "independent" since ISOK is more of a peer recognition org than a pyramid scheme org.  And while I still teach from a basis in shotokan, I have, like many especially here, added in goju, aikido and judo basics to inform kata and kata applications.  And since I have never had a commercial dojo, i.e. worked to cover expenses in leased space, but always taught in universities or  - as now - in city run facilities as a part time city employee, I can pretty much do what I want, and encourage my students to also begin to craft their own karate.  Your only technical problems will be twofold: 1) get togethers, and 2) who signs and thus who recognizes the ranks you give.

Neil Babbage
Neil Babbage's picture

It was forced on me. The previous owner decided to retire, we didn't want to continue the old club in the same form but did want to continue to train together. It's early days - this only happened in December 2016 - but it's been a great time. We have a bunch of people who are more motivated and engaged who have begun to bring new ideas into the club. We've also had more new adult members in the first three months than we had in the last two years of the old club.

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi tubbydrawers

For me it was moving to the new country, after training in dojo close to where I was living, I was not happy with the way they trained. With the blessing of my teachers I have opened dojo of our system/ style.

I teach modified version of our Karate, I was lucky enough that my Sensei always was encouraging me to find own way, that is what I'm passing now to my students.

Kind regards

Les

Tau
Tau's picture

For me it was what I wanted to do for as long as I can remember. The opening of my club in 2004 is described on my website and student literature as "a lifelong dream."

And yet I never considered it as a way to make a living. So now I have the ongoing challenge of balancing my martial arts with my careers. It is conceivable that at some I'll need to choose one or the other and the choice is both very easy (martial arts!) and very difficult (uncertainty and with a difficult social situation.)

Much though I love my job I can't help but feel that I could have my time again I may well have worked to become a full time martial arts instructor a long time ago.

tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture

Leszek.B wrote:

For me it was moving to the new country, after training in dojo close to where I was living, I was not happy with the way they trained.

I think this is what I am finding, in that there are quite a few aspects of the way the Association trains that I am not happy with. To be clear, I do teach one night a week, which consists of 4 classes, Little Ninajs from 4-7 and then 3 x junior classes going up in age and up in belt rank. There are no adults.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

It’s good to be part of a group that can offer support and good training, but there also comes a point where people need to take ownership of their own path. You still need people to train under and offer guidance because being completely alone often results in stagnation. However, this can be on a more “informal” basis and in a way that still permits you to decide the overall direction of travel.

I did actually leave one Dojo within the Association and now kind of train on an dad-hoc basis with the Chief Instructor. Only problem with that is, is that we have an understanding of where i teach his students Bunkai for gradings and I do around 20-30 mins of training in his class.

with this arrangement, I am not sure if this is what I really want, I have trained for the past 2 years with a Reality Bassed Group but that is over 90 mins drive away so I am only there whenever I can.

I have thought about opening my own club within the Association and that way, even though I would have to teach the 'syllabus', i can effectively teach my Practical Karate to whoever walks in through the door. The problem I am facing is,am I taking too much on or I am a worrier!

Am I teaching effective Karate? Do I teach my Reality Based Techniques? Should I give up the other class and go and open up my own little club within the Association? Looking at all the other 3rd Dan's and above, there are only really 1 maybe 2 of us who actually go and train with other people. The others seem to be what Iain typed above - Stagnating. And I do not want to be like that.

Please don't get me wrong - you might think Im being awkward etc for not wanting to train with certain Instructors who cant really show me anything realistic. I think with going to other Seminars, training with other people has set myself on a path where i am now seeing things differently and performing 3K Karate or unrealistic knife defence has made me stop and think about what I want.

Maybe one of the main conerns is - am i good enough to go alone - either with the Association backing me or even on my own little legs !

I am a avid follower of Iain Abernethy / Geoff Thompson and others like them and it seems to have rubbed a few people up the wrong way. I am hvign a few problems within the Assoication regarding Bunkia and other self defence methods. What I think I am saying is, do I want to be involved with people who treat me the way they do?

Elmar wrote:

Your only technical problems will be twofold: 1) get togethers, and 2) who signs and thus who recognizes the ranks you give

This is another problem I am having to think about. I could just stay at 3rd Dan, but then in 2 years, I am thinking of wanting to go to a 4th Dan level. I would have to get the State Karate Association to grade me. Not sure how that would go down if I have left my currently Association.

Basically, staying where I am has its good points, going on my own has them as well, but I can lean on the Assocaition if I have problems down the road.

My wife, I think has been driven mad by me talking about this for many months now!!!  Might even be coming up to over a year now. Maybe I need to take her on holiday :)

tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture

Hi,

I have edited the above post as it seems it came across that I was wingeing . Like a good old fashion POM. That was not my intentions, so I have altered it to make it sound a bit more better.

Another issue, I have is that the place I was going to open up my New Dojo say I can only have the place from 6.45pm. In the assocation they like to teach little children / Ninjas. from age 4. Starting at 6.45pm for age 4. thats quite late at night.

Should I just leave it until I find something else? Or do I just do a Junior and adults class during the week and a Little childrens class at the weekend on a Sat morning?

Too many things to think about!

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

I think you need to clearly define what you want from your karate and what it is you want to contribute to get that. Being part of a group is generally better. I run my own dojo in my own way, but I still have affiliations to groups and individuals who help us grow. The group you are a member of will have their own goals, and it’s ultimately a matter of how your goals and their goals coincide. If you can get benefit from being an active member, in a way that is congruent with your own goals (even if those goals are not fully aligned with the group) then there is benefit to remaining put and being selective about what roles you take on and who you interact with. A group does not need to be totally instep with your goals, so long as it contributes toward them in a meaningful way. If, however, the group is proving to be more of a hindrance than a help then you may be better leaving and going fully your own way. There are plusses and minuses wither way. The key is to clearly define what you want, and then seeking that via the best available options to you.

All the best,

Iain

MCM180
MCM180's picture

Slight modification on the topic, if y'all don't mind:

What qualifications do you think it takes for one to be credible to open a dojo with an applied approach? I'm dreaming long-term here, but dream with me if you will.

I assume that at least a first-degree black belt makes sense, doing a lot of teaching along the way to shodan. But what if one is branching out from a traditional style to something different? For me, if I were to ever reach shodan, it'd probably be in a pretty traditional Shotokan style (the organization explicitly wants to maintain the style of the 1970s and 1980s). That's the link I have, and the instruction fits my schedule and budget. Even if I changed dojos, there's no WCA-like dojo nearby, so I'd probably reach black belt in some more traditional style.

But...I wouldn't be interested in teaching in the "traditional" style. I'd be more interested in the applied approach that we discuss here. (You know...Iain-ryu...JUST KIDDING! Please don't ban me!)

So, does it make sense to get a black belt from whatever credible karate organization I can, and then maybe apply to open a WCA club? In other words, how might I transition from being trained in a stricter "traditional" style to opening a dojo that's intended to teach a very different approach to karate study and application? 

Thanks for any insight you all can provide. (By the way, of all the forums I read on the internet on all topics, this is really the most helpful group of people I find. You're all a great blessing to me.)

Yours,

Christian

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Chritsian

For me there is no problem that you are doing Shotokan, there is many people here posting quality practical use of Shotokan or any other style of karate. In karate that I was told we always had strong emphasis on bunkai, practical use of karate is not about the technical aspect its more about the way of thinking about these techniques. Shotokan have all the tols needed to be practical you just have to find your way of applying it, definitely watching videos can give you ideas even better to pop in for the seminars with people who do that kind of karate. Through this forum you have access to the teachers like Iain, Marc, Andy, john or myself. So don't worry too much just start to apply your version of practical Shotokan :) 

Ps. I hope thet it make sense what I wrote, english is not my first language

Kind regards

Les

Marc
Marc's picture

MCM180 wrote:

Slight modification on the topic, if y'all don't mind:

What qualifications do you think it takes for one to be credible to open a dojo with an applied approach? I'm dreaming long-term here, but dream with me if you will.

Hi Christan,

that is a very interesting question that I think deserves its own thread.

@Iain, as the moderator, what do you think?

All the best

Marc

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hi,

I decided to follow the advice of Matsu Basho "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought".

The outcome was that in 2011 I left one group and joined another group that offered me complete independence whilst providing an umbrella for insurance, consultation, dan grade examination, access to great teachers and tremendous mentoring.

I've been on a slow, steady and evolving "journey" in which there have been mistakes, successes and failures; yet the rewarding thing is that they have been all mine - good and bad - which is healthy for me. I did it my way.... and here's a recap, which may be helpful to you.

Syllabus is critical. My syllabus has evolved, through sharing knowledge and receiving advice, all done with a warm, generous and unselfish approach. You need to have an available network of like minded martial artists who open new avenues of thought and share their knowledge, once again unselfishly.

Start with a basic syllabus. Keep it simple and try not to solve all the problems in one go. It will change and really it has to evolve. I have a annual review and change things, ever so slowly throughout the following year.

Seminars are key. I don't pick everything up in one go, hence I'll take one thing - a combination or a drill back home and I'll work it out. I'll then introduce it slowly and within a year it will be in the syllabus, or maybe not.

I transitioned from the Shotokan Funakoshi (Yoshitake)/Nakayama "3K" approach to one in which kihon waza, kata, bunkai, two person drills, pad work have "skill threads" weaving throughout creating a "tapestry of tactics".

I'm now just Karate now (although my club has Shotokan in the name). I now have influences from various martial artists.

For you own self improvement, you need time for yourself. I spent so much time teaching that I began to lose the edge. Now I cross train with boxing (which btw is great). Don't let the existence of the club be the reason, let your enjoyment of teaching and your study be the essence. You will retain folks if there is structure, goals and reason behind everything you teach.

You can't win them all but with fortitude and persistence you will builld a core of 5-10 people who will have an affinity with what you teach. Don't let yourself get down if people don't come back. Stick with it.

Kindest Regards,

Ally

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Marc wrote:
that is a very interesting question that I think deserves its own thread.

@Iain, as the moderator, what do you think?

It probably could do with one of its own, but it is in line with the original topic and people have already added some important posts. We just need to be sure that we don’t forget the original premise of the discussion. That way we cover the why (original premise), and the what (is needed) and the how (how people did it themselves).

AllyWhytock wrote:
I decided to follow the advice of Matsu Basho "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought" ... (snip)

Ally’s post is one that has a lot of wise advice in it. I’ve seen first-hand the journey Ally’s group has undertaken and I would point to them as a great example of a group that has made the transition very effectively. I’ve also had the pleasure of sitting on grading panels for Ally’s group so I know that they have that fantastic mix of good kihon, good kata, good impact, good bunkai drills, realistic live drills, etc that all come together to form a karate that is simultaneously effective, efficient and even aesthetically pleasing.  

So Ally has “been there, done that” in a way that delivers the results. Anyone seeking to do the same should read that post carefully because there is a load of good advice in there.

All the best,

Iain

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Thank you for the kind words Iain.

For all, who are new to Iain's forum may I add that the podcasts that Iain produces are absolutely key and critical to aiding any karate ka who is considering setting up their own dojo or transitioning a dojo to a more practical approach.

Kindest Regards,

Ally