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Tk995
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Tekki Shodan/Naihanchi Spinning Top Throw

Hey I've read that Funakoshi makes a reference to bunkai for the Spinning Top throw in Naihanchi Kata. If I remember correctly he states that the gedan barai is used for the takedown. But I'm asking myself isn't the Kagi Zuki more important to press against the elbow joint of the Uke? First the gedan barai graps the wrist pulls it to his hips and the Kagi Zuki completes the takedown with locking the elbow. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

My second question isn't this technique quite similar to the ikkyo technique of Aikido?

Marc
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Tk995 wrote:

Hey I've read that Funakoshi makes a reference to bunkai for the Spinning Top throw in Naihanchi Kata. If I remember correctly he states that the gedan barai is used for the takedown. But I'm asking myself isn't the Kagi Zuki more important to press against the elbow joint of the Uke? First the gedan barai graps the wrist pulls it to his hips and the Kagi Zuki completes the takedown with locking the elbow. Please correct me if I'm wrongwink

I guess both would be possible. If you only want to use gedan-barai to demonstrate the principle of the throw then your hikite hand would control their wrist and pull it around while the downward sweeping hand would roll over their elbow or press down on their shoulder.

I looked up Aikido's Ikkyo and the ura version seems to match Funakoshi's Komanage quite well (about 1:05 in the video):

Iain Abernethy
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Tk995 wrote:
I've read that Funakoshi makes a reference to bunkai for the Spinning Top throw in Naihanchi Kata. If I remember correctly he states that the gedan barai is used for the takedown. But I'm asking myself isn't the Kagi Zuki more important to press against the elbow joint of the Uke?

In Funakoshi’s book “Rentan Goshin Karate Jutsu” (1925) he remarks that the lower block in Naihanchi / Tekki Shodan is the arm lock that sets up his “spinning top” throw. There’s a picture of him doing it too. The video below contains that picture and I use the same arm bar as part of a Motobu, Funakoshi, Nakasone combination:

You definitely see the “hook” as a similar lock though, and that too can lead us into spinning top; as I show here (starting 1:40):

So the answer to your question is twofold: Yes, you can definitely use the hook in that way. No, Funakoshi is explicit – in text and photos – that it is the lower-block he sees as being the lock; not the hook.

All the best,

Iain

Tk995
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That's the way I thought of the technique. I think Iain's second video shows this application very well. Anyway as Iain said Funakoshi mentions the Gedan Barai but what I don't understand is how the throw is executed with a Gedan Barai? Because the picture of Funakoshi doing the spinning top throw shows him first securing Uke's wrist (maybe Gedan Barai) and then turning and locking with a movement from the outside in. (maybe similar to Kagi Zuki)  However the Gedan Barai is more of a from the "inside to outside motion". Sorry might be a stupid question but I just don't understand how Funakoshi wants the Gedan Barai solitary used for this throw. Beyond breaking balance and securing the wrist of the opponent with the hikite hand as Marc wrote would be possible but the next step must be a move from the outside in and a Gedan Barai is the opposite. I might have also an error in reasoning here

Iain Abernethy
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Tk995 wrote:
Anyway as Iain said Funakoshi mentions the Gedan Barai but what I don't understand is how the throw is executed with a Gedan Barai? Because the picture of Funakoshi doing the spinning top throw shows him first securing Uke's wrist (maybe Gedan Barai) and then turning and locking with a movement from the outside in.

It’s done in the same way I show it in the first video (around 1:15). The hiki-te is grabbing the wrist. The “prime” on the “lower block” puts the other forearm just above uke’s elbow.  The continuation of the hiki-te to the hip, and the downward arch of the “lower block” locks uke’s arm out. You’ll then be in the position Funakoshi shows in the photo. You then turn (assume the sideways position of the kata relative to the enemy) and the disrupted posture of uke (bent forward) will see them unable to take the corrective step needed and hence they fall.

To me, I can clearly see the lock and the “lower block” motion being one and the same. I’m not following where the confusion is. Maybe it’s not seeing the hand on the hip as being active, because you seem confused about what is securing uke’s wrist? Either way, I hope the above clarifies a little?

All the best,

Iain

Tk995
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Yes Iain I got it now thanks :D Very helpful I understand the technique now.

Best regards and thank you very much,

Tom Kopp

Iain Abernethy
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Tk995 wrote:
Yes Iain I got it now thanks

I’m pleased that helped! It’s difficult to get these things across in images and written word. Even videos are not always clear. I’m pleased the combination helped though. Thanks for sticking with me.

All the best,

Iain